[MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, Mk2T
Jerry Helman
gerald_helman at comcast.net
Tue Apr 13 22:57:58 EDT 2010
Could the noise of the starter be drowning out the creaking noise? Which may
be timing tensioner, pulleys, etc. or oil pump. Also when trying to manually
turn engine over try a long preacher bar to see if you can get past the
"bind" that the starter seems to be doing. I can't believe that a broken rod
would do this with out a lot of noise....even when cranking w/the starter.
Jerry Helman/Senor Dos/85Mk1
-----Original Message-----
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Today's Topics:
1. Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd gen-UPDATE
(Donald Chalfant)
2. Re: Towing 93 Turbo (Donald Chalfant)
3. Re: Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd gen-UPDATE
(Kevin Parker)
4. Re: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T (Chris)
5. Re: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd gen-UPDATE (Chris)
6. Re: Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE (Chris)
7. Re: Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE (Donald Chalfant)
8. Re: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T (Steve)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:31:12 -0400
From: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>
Subject: [MR2] Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE
To: <mr2 at mr2.com>
Message-ID: <37BEDB3C06C34180A94D9BC718709BE7 at lucky>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Let me amend the below to explain that I was not speaking of Chris
consulting the list for help. I think I've always encouraged that. Well,
perhaps with the exception of a recent overseas visitor who tried to throw
parts together and make an MR2 and wouldn't get a computer to see what we
were trying to tell him. I was referring to the real life situating where
you are under the car, wiggling the ratchet/break over bar on the crankshaft
bolt and 2-3 of your friends are standing by the car doing facebook/ twitter
and making loud conversations. Those little clanks and clacks inside the
engine are hard to hear and silence is a wonderful tool there. Even when
you're young and haven't had lots of bangs make your ear drums semi-useless.
................
I've had broken rods and pistons bind things up but never a silent one. If
there is any movement possible (I've have frozen solid too but only in
motorcycles) Always some clanking or grinding sounds accompanied with a
little movement. You do have to tell all your chattering friends standing on
the sideline to shut up.
Take my comments a little as a grain of salt because I'm not as
mechanically inclined as I'd like, but this is scaring me as I envision
him
turning the crank until the shaft itself hits a broken rod which has
dropped to the bottom of the cylinder...I hope I'm wrong!!
-wayne
'91 Turbo T
On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:00:47 -0500 (CDT), Kurt Krueger
<telek2 at verizon.net>
wrote:
> Apr 13, 2010 07:37:03 AM, chrissul at comporium.net wrote:
>
>>
>>removed the alternator belt, alternator spins freely. Cannot turn the
>>crank
>>
>>by hand clockwise, can turn counterclockwise about 1/2 a turn(180
>>degrees)
>>maybe..not quite that much. it also emits a squeak when I do that. Can
>>then turn back to the original position. I cannot turn it very far in
>>either direction, honestly. 180 degrees is probably optimistic.
>>
>>like I said, car ran PERFECTLY FINE, has oil (1500 miles, mobil 1 every
>>3000-3500 miles), coolant, etc. until the morning it fired and died.
>>
>>Car is out of gear, plugs are out,
>>
>>So what should I do next?
>
> Not likely anything dropped into A cylinder. If a piston was hitting
> something, you'd
> have about 360 degrees of rotation back and forth. To get only 180 it
> would have
> to involve two cylinders.
>
> I take it you don't get any metallic sounding clunk when it hits the end
> of travel.
> If something was being hit internally, you might be able to hear it when
it
> makes contact and get a clue what/where it is.
>
> Water pump uses a centrifugal impeller. It's not likely to have a
definite
> range of motion like you experience. Oil pumps use gears to move
> oil (at least most do). A broken tooth could behave like you observe.
>
> If it were my engine, I'd continue like you did with the alternator.
> Start eliminating
> things that turn. Anything else turned by a belt, then distributor,
then
> remove
> the timing covers and deal with the timing belt (3rd gen does have a
> timing belt,
> right?).
>
> I hope you find something. If you do all the above an it still won't
> turn, you've got
> something internal to the engine. Like a thrown rod.
>
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:39:33 -0400
From: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Towing 93 Turbo
To: "Byron" <autoxer at sbcglobal.net>, "MR2 List" <mr2 at mr2.com>
Message-ID: <91A6FF9F26AA4985A38295EE1F1D45F3 at lucky>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
My kids had an old Chevrolet Tracker, and it started coming apart at about
60K. Needed brake rotors at 40K. Then Electronics, then water pumps,
radiator, hoses.
But, IIRC, the oil pump drives off the differential assembly gears on both
the E-151 and 153 transmissions. Thus, tow that sucker on down here.
----- Original Message -----
From: Byron
To: MR2 List
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 2:21 PM
Subject: [MR2] Towing 93 Turbo
I know this subject has come up at times and I've seen various answers,
both pro and con.
I'd like to know if anyone has flat towed a 93 Turbo. I would expect
that the transmission would be adequately lubricated, but it does have
an oil pump, I think driven off of the input shaft, so I'm not sure if
this would affect lubrication. I'm considering towing it behind my
motorhome on a few occasions, but I may purchase a small older 4WD, like
a Tracker, instead.
Thanks,
Byron 93 SMG Turbo
_______________________________________________
MR2 Mailing List
MR2 at mr2.com
http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 20:15:51 -0500
From: Kevin Parker <k.parker.jf at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE
To: Donald Chalfant <dkchal at datasync.com>
Cc: mr2 at mr2.com
Message-ID:
<m2hac356ca11004131815s5f9ea498ndd199b4ac50c5249 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
LOL Using that as a qualifying tool, I would need an amplifier to hear
internal engine noises.
On Apr 13, 2010 7:31 PM, "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com> wrote:
Let me amend the below to explain that I was not speaking of Chris
consulting the list for help. I think I've always encouraged that. Well,
perhaps with the exception of a recent overseas visitor who tried to throw
parts together and make an MR2 and wouldn't get a computer to see what we
were trying to tell him. I was referring to the real life situating where
you are under the car, wiggling the ratchet/break over bar on the crankshaft
bolt and 2-3 of your friends are standing by the car doing facebook/ twitter
and making loud conversations. Those little clanks and clacks inside the
engine are hard to hear and silence is a wonderful tool there. Even when
you're young and haven't had lots of bangs make your ear drums semi-useless.
................
I've had broken rods and pistons bind things up but never a silent one. If
there is any movement ...
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:30:53 -0400
From: "Chris" <chrissul at comporium.net>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T
To: "James" <seawa.anon at gmail.com>, <mr2 at mr2.com>
Message-ID: <2243A3548D194C14BD933B873CA015AA at ChrisPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
The starter can turn the motor over, though
--------------------------------------------------
From: "James" <seawa.anon at gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:41 PM
To: <mr2 at mr2.com>
Subject: [MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T
> For what it's worth, I second Kurt's advice below. I'll add however,
> that I HAVE had a catastrophic water pump failure - on an old Toyota
> Celica. I hadn't picked up on any leaks or unusual noise, until it
> tossed a belt and started overheating. I'd never seen a water pump
> fail like this before. the bearing had failed, the shaft was cocked
> over at an angle, and it was frozen solid.
>
> Another possibility might be that the starter solenoid failed and the
> the drive gear's still engaged. As Kurt suggested, once you've
> eleminated all the externals, it must be internal.
>
> Good luck and keep us posted.
>
> James
>
>> From: Kurt Krueger <telek2 at verizon.net>
>>
>> Water pump uses a centrifugal impeller. It's not likely to have a
>> definite
>> range of motion like you experience. Oil pumps use gears to move
>> oil (at least most do). A broken tooth could behave like you observe.
>>
>> If it were my engine, I'd continue like you did with the alternator.
>> Start eliminating
>> things that turn. Anything else turned by a belt, then distributor, then
>> remove
>> the timing covers and deal with the timing belt (3rd gen does have a
>> timing belt,
>> right?).
>>
>> I hope you find something. If you do all the above an it still won't
>> turn, you've got
>> something internal to the engine. Like a thrown rod.
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:30:19 -0400
From: "Chris" <chrissul at comporium.net>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE
To: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>,
<waynearndt at waynearndt.com>, <mr2 at mr2.com>
Message-ID: <5E87AFBF7B344841A6FC6DB412103E69 at ChrisPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
that is actualy something I feared. I have honestly been really gentle on
the engine, very few high rpm runs, easy on the clutch, good oil, etc. I
can't imagine a rod broke just from starting the car.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:20 PM
To: <waynearndt at waynearndt.com>; <mr2 at mr2.com>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd gen-UPDATE
>
> I've had broken rods and pistons bind things up but never a silent one.
> If there is any movement possible (I've have frozen solid too but only in
> motorcycles) Always some clanking or grinding sounds accompanied with a
> little movement. You do have to tell all your chattering friends standing
> on the sideline to shut up.
>
> Take my comments a little as a grain of salt because I'm not as
> mechanically inclined as I'd like, but this is scaring me as I envision
> him
> turning the crank until the shaft itself hits a broken rod which has
> dropped to the bottom of the cylinder...I hope I'm wrong!!
>
> -wayne
> '91 Turbo T
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:00:47 -0500 (CDT), Kurt Krueger
> <telek2 at verizon.net>
> wrote:
> > Apr 13, 2010 07:37:03 AM, chrissul at comporium.net wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>removed the alternator belt, alternator spins freely. Cannot turn the
> >>crank
> >>
> >>by hand clockwise, can turn counterclockwise about 1/2 a turn(180
> >>degrees)
> >>maybe..not quite that much. it also emits a squeak when I do that.
> Can
>
> >>then turn back to the original position. I cannot turn it very far in
> >>either direction, honestly. 180 degrees is probably optimistic.
> >>
> >>like I said, car ran PERFECTLY FINE, has oil (1500 miles, mobil 1 every
> >>3000-3500 miles), coolant, etc. until the morning it fired and died.
> >>
> >>Car is out of gear, plugs are out,
> >>
> >>So what should I do next?
> >
> > Not likely anything dropped into A cylinder. If a piston was hitting
> > something, you'd
> > have about 360 degrees of rotation back and forth. To get only 180 it
> > would have
> > to involve two cylinders.
> >
> > I take it you don't get any metallic sounding clunk when it hits the
> end
> > of travel.
> > If something was being hit internally, you might be able to hear it
> when
> it
> > makes contact and get a clue what/where it is.
> >
> > Water pump uses a centrifugal impeller. It's not likely to have a
> definite
> > range of motion like you experience. Oil pumps use gears to move
> > oil (at least most do). A broken tooth could behave like you observe.
> >
> > If it were my engine, I'd continue like you did with the alternator.
> > Start eliminating
> > things that turn. Anything else turned by a belt, then distributor,
> then
> > remove
> > the timing covers and deal with the timing belt (3rd gen does have a
> > timing belt,
> > right?).
> >
> > I hope you find something. If you do all the above an it still won't
> > turn, you've got
> > something internal to the engine. Like a thrown rod.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MR2 Mailing List
> > MR2 at mr2.com
> > http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:33:03 -0400
From: "Chris" <chrissul at comporium.net>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE
To: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>, <mr2 at mr2.com>
Message-ID: <6C9B74E144374182A60161E76671DA85 at ChrisPC>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
I do hear a loud creaking sound when it tightens up and locks up, but it is
more like that of something 'trying' to turn than something hitting
something else. does that make sense? Also, the started 'can' turn the
engine.
--------------------------------------------------
From: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 8:31 PM
To: <mr2 at mr2.com>
Subject: [MR2] Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd gen-UPDATE
> Let me amend the below to explain that I was not speaking of Chris
> consulting the list for help. I think I've always encouraged that. Well,
> perhaps with the exception of a recent overseas visitor who tried to throw
> parts together and make an MR2 and wouldn't get a computer to see what we
> were trying to tell him. I was referring to the real life situating where
> you are under the car, wiggling the ratchet/break over bar on the
> crankshaft bolt and 2-3 of your friends are standing by the car doing
> facebook/ twitter and making loud conversations. Those little clanks and
> clacks inside the engine are hard to hear and silence is a wonderful tool
> there. Even when you're young and haven't had lots of bangs make your ear
> drums semi-useless.
> ................
>
> I've had broken rods and pistons bind things up but never a silent one.
> If there is any movement possible (I've have frozen solid too but only in
> motorcycles) Always some clanking or grinding sounds accompanied with a
> little movement. You do have to tell all your chattering friends standing
> on the sideline to shut up.
>
> Take my comments a little as a grain of salt because I'm not as
> mechanically inclined as I'd like, but this is scaring me as I envision
> him
> turning the crank until the shaft itself hits a broken rod which has
> dropped to the bottom of the cylinder...I hope I'm wrong!!
>
> -wayne
> '91 Turbo T
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2010 10:00:47 -0500 (CDT), Kurt Krueger
> <telek2 at verizon.net>
> wrote:
> > Apr 13, 2010 07:37:03 AM, chrissul at comporium.net wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>removed the alternator belt, alternator spins freely. Cannot turn the
> >>crank
> >>
> >>by hand clockwise, can turn counterclockwise about 1/2 a turn(180
> >>degrees)
> >>maybe..not quite that much. it also emits a squeak when I do that.
> Can
>
> >>then turn back to the original position. I cannot turn it very far in
> >>either direction, honestly. 180 degrees is probably optimistic.
> >>
> >>like I said, car ran PERFECTLY FINE, has oil (1500 miles, mobil 1 every
> >>3000-3500 miles), coolant, etc. until the morning it fired and died.
> >>
> >>Car is out of gear, plugs are out,
> >>
> >>So what should I do next?
> >
> > Not likely anything dropped into A cylinder. If a piston was hitting
> > something, you'd
> > have about 360 degrees of rotation back and forth. To get only 180 it
> > would have
> > to involve two cylinders.
> >
> > I take it you don't get any metallic sounding clunk when it hits the
> end
> > of travel.
> > If something was being hit internally, you might be able to hear it
> when
> it
> > makes contact and get a clue what/where it is.
> >
> > Water pump uses a centrifugal impeller. It's not likely to have a
> definite
> > range of motion like you experience. Oil pumps use gears to move
> > oil (at least most do). A broken tooth could behave like you observe.
> >
> > If it were my engine, I'd continue like you did with the alternator.
> > Start eliminating
> > things that turn. Anything else turned by a belt, then distributor,
> then
> > remove
> > the timing covers and deal with the timing belt (3rd gen does have a
> > timing belt,
> > right?).
> >
> > I hope you find something. If you do all the above an it still won't
> > turn, you've got
> > something internal to the engine. Like a thrown rod.
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MR2 Mailing List
> > MR2 at mr2.com
> > http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
>
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
>
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 21:56:04 -0400
From: "Donald Chalfant" <dkchal at datasync.com>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Fw: Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T, 3rd
gen-UPDATE
To: "Chris" <chrissul at comporium.net>, <mr2 at mr2.com>
Message-ID: <5D25B421035F470999FEBE35ED5AA500 at lucky>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
A timing belt idler pulley would make a sound, let the starter turn the
engine over, but I cannot fathom how it would stop an ignition spark. We
did have fire at a plug didn't we?
I do hear a loud creaking sound when it tightens up and locks up, but it
is
more like that of something 'trying' to turn than something hitting
something else. does that make sense? Also, the started 'can' turn the
engine.
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Tue, 13 Apr 2010 22:21:53 -0400
From: Steve <steveslike at aol.com>
Subject: Re: [MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T
To: mr2 at mr2.com
Message-ID: <1271211713.6717.15.camel at laptop>
Content-Type: text/plain
Is the starter drive gear stuck in mesh with the flywheel? (Sorry if
someone has already suggested this.)
On Tue, 2010-04-13 at 21:30 -0400, Chris wrote:
> The starter can turn the motor over, though
>
> --------------------------------------------------
> From: "James" <seawa.anon at gmail.com>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2010 12:41 PM
> To: <mr2 at mr2.com>
> Subject: [MR2] Ongoing problem, will not start, mk2T
>
> > For what it's worth, I second Kurt's advice below. I'll add however,
> > that I HAVE had a catastrophic water pump failure - on an old Toyota
> > Celica. I hadn't picked up on any leaks or unusual noise, until it
> > tossed a belt and started overheating. I'd never seen a water pump
> > fail like this before. the bearing had failed, the shaft was cocked
> > over at an angle, and it was frozen solid.
> >
> > Another possibility might be that the starter solenoid failed and the
> > the drive gear's still engaged. As Kurt suggested, once you've
> > eleminated all the externals, it must be internal.
> >
> > Good luck and keep us posted.
> >
> > James
> >
> >> From: Kurt Krueger <telek2 at verizon.net>
> >>
> >> Water pump uses a centrifugal impeller. It's not likely to have a
> >> definite
> >> range of motion like you experience. Oil pumps use gears to move
> >> oil (at least most do). A broken tooth could behave like you observe.
> >>
> >> If it were my engine, I'd continue like you did with the alternator.
> >> Start eliminating
> >> things that turn. Anything else turned by a belt, then distributor,
then
> >> remove
> >> the timing covers and deal with the timing belt (3rd gen does have a
> >> timing belt,
> >> right?).
> >>
> >> I hope you find something. If you do all the above an it still won't
> >> turn, you've got
> >> something internal to the engine. Like a thrown rod.
> >>
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > MR2 Mailing List
> > MR2 at mr2.com
> > http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
> >
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> MR2 Mailing List
> MR2 at mr2.com
> http://mr2.com/mailman/listinfo/mr2_mr2.com
------------------------------
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