mr2-digest Friday, June 26 1998 Volume 02 : Number 1000 MR2 HKS Power pully ABV mod Re: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer [none] Re: MR2 I'm the poster boy for throttle lift oversteer mkII turbo Re: MR2-Apex info...PANN !!! RE: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer MR2 MKIIT Do 94 swaybar links fit on 91's (3/90)? Re: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer MR2 unMODernized? Re: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer RE: MR2 unMODernized? MR2 Cleaning Throttle Body RE: MR2 unMODernized? Re: MR2 MKii Plastic Models MR2 Mk.I SC cheap Blitz pulleys MR2 I'm the poster boy for throttle lift oversteer mkII turbo Re: MR2 MKIIT Do 94 swaybar links fit on 91's (3/90)? Re: MR2 RE: vtv leaking?????? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 14:12:26 -0500 From: Ricardo_Martinez@Dell.com Subject: MR2 HKS Power pully ABV mod Can someone give me a better description of which vacuum line to move when installing the HKS pulley on a MkI SC? Right now I disconnected the vacuum hose (with the black and white valve on it) from right under the throttle body, plugged that with a rubber vacuum cap, and reconnected the same hose to a vacuum-T spliced into the hose between the manifold and fuel pressure VSV. Is that right? That seems like what the HKS instructions say. Thanks. Rick Martinez 1988 MR2 SC 1989 MR2 NA-->SC running tomorrow :) Ricardo_Martinez@us.dell.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:27:23 -0008 From: TerrySaltzman@home.com Subject: Re: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer its about weight, its transfer and distribution, relative to the slip angle of the tires/car. its all about traction and weight one follows the other. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:36:53 -0400 From: JEFF DAVIES Subject: [none] DOES ANYONE KNOW WHEN AND WERE ARE THEY MEETING FOR THE RACES AT CAPITOL RACEWAY THIS WEEKEND JEFF 92 TURBO BALTIMORE, MD ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:28:53 -0700 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: MR2 I'm the poster boy for throttle lift oversteer mkII turbo TeutonicVW@aol.com wrote: > > Ok I feel like an idiot.. Not stupid, just perhaps lacking experience. > I was cruising down round hill road (an absolutly kickass road that goes > through greenwitch, ct probably the richest town short of bev. hills) > and i was doing like 55mph. Higher speeds contribute to oversterr. > My friend warned me there was gravel ahead, Lack of traction contributes to oversteer. so i > got on the brakes fairly hard. Applying brakes contributes to oversteer. > I also was going around an increasing apex turn (correct terminology?) Commonly called a decreasing radius turn. The worst kind for oversteer. Even if you start out okay, you find out you are not. > So now there is close to no traction for the rear wheels, and things seem a > bit shakey. > The straw that breaks the camels back is that i had to jerk the car Key word here is "jerk"...no not you! 8) But as in jerking the steering wheel. It's a recipe for disaster. Rus, you probably know this (specially now!) but for the list in general... You have a higher speed, low traction, hard on the brakes, decreasing radius turn. Any *one* of these things can be enough to spin the car. Each one contributes to the laws of physics overcoming the cars ability to not spin. In this case, you had *all* of them, then added, as you say, the last straw, the jerk on the steering wheel due to an unforseen circumstance. The mid-engined car needs to be driven with this in mind. This is why most cars come with so much understeer. Remember that braking unweights the rear end. Less weight on the rear end means less traction on the back. Turning means that one tire is going to be doing more work, and harsh steering input can cause more weight shift. So, here is the solutions for those who have not totalled their MR2s yet. I really don't want to sound patronizing, and I am sure there are many good drivers on the list, so if you already know this, this is not directed to you. But we seem to lose a lot of cars to this one thing. The MR2 is not the easiest car to drive in this respect, and respect is a good word. You need to respect the car and what it does. Brake BEFORE the corner. Not in it. If anything accelerate (watch the boost!) in the corner. This transfers weight to the rear end. This is the opposite of what you might want to do, since you perceive you are going to fast. Steering inputs need to be smooth. Do not upset the car in a turn (unless it's intentional). When you go in too hot and your front end is not sticking (understeer), open UP the steering wheel to transfer grip to the front. Again, this is the opposite of what you want to do. Align the car correctly. The hell with a little tire wear. Get some toe in on the rear. It's worth it. IMNSHO, this car without toe in (91/92) is a tad bit scary at speed. Learn how to drive on the edge. Lets face it, we all will eventually be at the edge even if we never plan on it. You can drive 55mph on the interstate (in an MR2???) and have to take evasive action (probably from road rage 8). Learn where the edge is and how to control it. You really can learn to control a spin and be able to aim the car in the spin. When you feel a spin coming on, you did not lose ALL control. You just have your options severely limited. 8) If you intentionally spin your car in a safe environment, you will find out what this means. I have spun my MR2 over 300 times now, so I got pretty good at it. I also learned where that darn edge is, and what I did to go over it. So, my monthly sermon is learn to drive your car on the track, at a driving school, or in the safety of the autocross. An autocross is only $15-25 and a few days of that, you will have learned a lot. Keep in mind that in some areas, this sport (70,000 in the USA) has really taken off and as someone else posted, you may not be able to get in. Some areas beg for new drivers. Here in San Diego, we have 150-200 drivers each day, and we get 4 one mile long runs for $25. - -snip- > > Thank god, my friend and I walked away with nothing but sore necks and a > scratched hand from the airbag. Very good news there was only minor injuries to your persons! > The car has $22,000 worth of damage (i tore 2 wheels and suspension peices > clear off, all other wheels are grossly off camber) not to mention damaging > every body panel but the roof. Time for the Sawsall! > At least im alive and i have insurance. > Well i think its an E30 M3 for me next. Nice car, good choice. Maintenance can be a bit expensive though (talk to present M3 owners). Two words "bend over". But a nice car. 8) Randy Chase '91 MR2 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:42:20 -0008 From: TerrySaltzman@home.com Subject: Re: MR2-Apex info...PANN !!! > > call Pann Auto (unfortunately they dont have a web site....must be a > > small operation not to have one.....eh??) > > They do have a website and an e-mail, but the website dosen't have a > catalog of their products. The address is > > ( http://www.lycaeum.com/pan/inside.html ) > WOW !!! great!!! i did not know this!!! (they must be a SUPERSTORE then...huh????) thanx for the info- terry ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:47:16 -0700 From: "Gabriel C. Lam" Subject: RE: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer Understeer is when you hit the wall nose first, oversteer is when you hit the wall tail first. > -----Original Message----- > > its about weight, its transfer and distribution, relative to the > slip angle of the tires/car. its all about traction and weight one > follows the other. > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 12:45:37 -0700 From: "AVERY DINAUER" Subject: MR2 MKIIT Do 94 swaybar links fit on 91's (3/90)? Well, awhile back someone told me they do. I just ordered a set of fronts, I hope they fit... for $168!!! -15% My front ST bar made my FR swaybar link fail... well, it sounds real bad anyway. When I take corners it creaks, cracks... yuk! Oh, and it's definitely the link, the upper ball joint to be exact. Please confirm...they will work! BTW, my dealer said they might be able to get me a deal on the TRD2000 kit :) ... bye bye aeroware? Avery- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:00:44 -0400 From: Mark Sink Subject: Re: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer You are correct, and make very valid points. Your stages of balance from 0-40 40-60 and 60+ are correct. A car normally progresses to oversteer as speeds increase, If you were oversteering at 20 MPH, you'd loose a few pounds sweating on your way to work just trying to keep it straight. So yes, there is no JUST oversteer, or JUST understeer. There is a point where it's neutral, and below that you get more understeer, above that, more oversteer. At least that is my limited experience, which seems to be in agreement with yours. I don't drive the same sweepers I used to, working down town now, but mine was set up to be neutral to slight oversteer at about 65 MPH. So this gave me more understeer than I'd like at lower speeds, but the sweepers onto the highway were awesome! I was running full stiff rear ST bar, and probably equal settings on the tokicos to get this. A notch stiffer at the rear would be a little to much oversteer I believe at these speeds. I would maintain neutrality at this point with throttle and slight steering input when necessary, but mainly with throttle. Way Fun! mark sink ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:02:24 -0400 From: Michael_R._Carson@FirstEnergyCorp.com Subject: MR2 unMODernized? I say, just a thought, but are there any of you chaps out there who do not "upgrade" your MR2? Are there any purists who enjoy keeping their Misters box-stock and are happy with the stock performance wether it be NA, SC, or T, and keep the stock wheels on their cars? Not that I'm against it, but all I see on the list is MOD this and MOD that, and paint your dash, and add a dash of paint, and on and on etc. and nobody ever talks about leaving the MR2 stock. Did Toyota fall short and produce a car that was lacking in all these areas so that numerous "corrections" are needed to enjoy the car? Once again, I'm not against modifications (to each his own) I'm just curious about this aspect of our favorite TOYota. Fire away! MR Carson Various MR2's (one even full size) some before they ran out of red paint ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:10:22 -0400 From: Mark Sink Subject: Re: MR2 Defining the point of under/over steer Gabriel C. Lam wrote: > Understeer is when you hit the wall nose first, oversteer is when you hit > the wall tail first. Assuming you didn't spin 360 degrees AND hit the wall nose first. :) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:20:07 -0700 From: "AVERY DINAUER" Subject: RE: MR2 unMODernized? Cars are made to fit a large category of people, everything that the average person would want needs to be built in. The ultimate car would be completely customized to YOUR specifications, what is most comfortable to you, looks best to you, performs best for you, etc. In the Western world people like to show off their individuality, and a car as custom as it can get is one way for some people. I guess some people are above average? And they "mod" their car to show it... just an idea, not to be conceded or anything =) It's almost an art form, especially handmade mods! It could just be a hobby? It could just be a "Need for Speed!", or it could be all of the above! Avery- 91T - ---------- From: Michael_R._Carson@FirstEnergyCorp.com[SMTP:Michael_R._Carson@FirstEnergyCorp.com] Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 1:02 PM To: mr2-interest@mr2.com Subject: MR2 unMODernized? I say, just a thought, but are there any of you chaps out there who do not "upgrade" your MR2? Are there any purists who enjoy keeping their Misters box-stock and are happy with the stock performance wether it be NA, SC, or T, and keep the stock wheels on their cars? Not that I'm against it, but all I see on the list is MOD this and MOD that, and paint your dash, and add a dash of paint, and on and on etc. and nobody ever talks about leaving the MR2 stock. Did Toyota fall short and produce a car that was lacking in all these areas so that numerous "corrections" are needed to enjoy the car? Once again, I'm not against modifications (to each his own) I'm just curious about this aspect of our favorite TOYota. Fire away! MR Carson Various MR2's (one even full size) some before they ran out of red paint ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 15:23:03 -0500 (CDT) From: Matt Kowske Subject: MR2 Cleaning Throttle Body My throttle body is in need of cleaning so I went out and bought some Gunk Carb Cleaner today but don't know exactly how to go about cleaning the throttle body. Someone told me once I don't have to take off the whole assembly but just spray some of the carb cleaner in somewhere. Where do I spray this stuff? Do I need to remove a hose? TIA Matt Kowske 88 NA Super White ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:31:29 -0700 From: "Gabriel C. Lam" Subject: RE: MR2 unMODernized? Wasn't it Mark Donahue who first realized that you have enough power when you can leave solid black stripes from the exit of one corner to the braking point of the next? I think this is where my 2 falls short. If Toyota would only make the 2 with the horsepower of S. Price's friend in the 93 Trans Am, and down the the weight of lets say a Lotus Elise Sport (1600lbs), I think I'd gladly leave it alone. Bone stock and proud of it. gabe > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-mr2@slapshot.hockey.net > [mailto:owner-mr2@slapshot.hockey.net]On Behalf Of > Michael_R._Carson@FirstEnergyCorp.com > Sent: Friday, June 26, 1998 1:02 PM > To: mr2-interest@mr2.com > Subject: MR2 unMODernized? > > > I say, just a thought, but are there any of you chaps out there > who do not > "upgrade" your MR2? Are there any purists who enjoy keeping their Misters > box-stock and are happy with the stock performance wether it be NA, SC, or > T, and keep the stock wheels on their cars? Not that I'm against it, but > all I see on the list is MOD this and MOD that, and paint your dash, and > add a dash of paint, and on and on etc. and nobody ever talks > about leaving > the MR2 stock. Did Toyota fall short and produce a car that was lacking in > all these areas so that numerous "corrections" are needed to > enjoy the car? > Once again, I'm not against modifications (to each his own) I'm just > curious about this aspect of our favorite TOYota. Fire away! > > MR Carson > Various MR2's (one even full size) > some before they ran out of red paint > ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:32:43 -0700 (PDT) From: David Hawkins Subject: Re: MR2 MKii Plastic Models > Rumor has it that David Hawkins is gonna make a model hitch too. 8) > Well, I like to think that the current hitch is a model design..... David _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:34:20 -0400 From: William Mabon Subject: MR2 Mk.I SC cheap Blitz pulleys Thanks to Terry S., and a tip from Chris Conlon, I got a good price on the 12 psi Blitz pulley from Alan at Pann Autosport. He said he would sell this part to IMOC members for $265. I have a HKS pulley that has been sitting around for a while, 10 psi, in box, complete, and never used, if someone wants to make me a reasonable offer for that. Bill Mabon 1989 Supercharged ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 16:31:33 -0400 From: Lyn Fatt Brian Subject: MR2 I'm the poster boy for throttle lift oversteer mkII turbo >>Ok I feel like an idiot.. I was cruising down round hill road (an absolutly kickass road that goes through greenwitch, ct probably the richest town short of bev. hills) and i was doing like 55mph. My friend warned me there was gravel ahead, so i got on the brakes fairly hard. I also was going around an increasing apex turn (correct terminology?) So now there is close to no traction for the rear wheels, and things seem a bit shakey. << Glad to hear you're ok. I'd like to gently push you in the direction of a high performance school. You can learn a lot in one of those schools. Based on your description, you did everything a 'normal' driver would do, which results in your mishap. I wont try to detail everything that you did wrong, (especially for the mid engined mr2) because it is much better for you to experience it while under controlled conditions. Really...try a local autocross or high performance driving school in your next car. Regards Brian. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:33:16 -0700 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: MR2 MKIIT Do 94 swaybar links fit on 91's (3/90)? AVERY DINAUER wrote: > > Well, awhile back someone told me they do. I just > ordered a set of fronts, I hope they fit... for $168!!! -15% > My front ST bar made my FR swaybar link fail... well, it > sounds real bad anyway. When I take corners it creaks, > cracks... yuk! Oh, and it's definitely the link, the upper > ball joint to be exact. Please confirm...they will work! Yes they will work, and work well, BUT, sometimes the failure is at the welds to the bracket that the upper end attaches to. Make sure this is okay. Your price seems high though.. dunno. Randy Chase '91 MR2 CS ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Jun 1998 13:43:57 -0700 (PDT) From: James Malvern Subject: Re: MR2 RE: vtv leaking?????? - ---Joel Clark wrote: > > > I checked the VTV and it was leaking, I resealed it and it seems to > > work ok now, Toyota has ordered me another one ($45 Can.) but of > > course it's on back order ! They told me in the mean time that I can > > use the one I have (it seems to work ) or I can just remove it and > > temporarily replace it with a small peice of tubing, anyone know if > > that's a good idea? > > > Hunh??? What exactly do you mean the vtv was leaking and you > sealed it??? Was a hose loose? The vtv is supposed to allow air > to freely flow in one direction, and flow with difficulty the > other way. Its NOT a check valve, some air is supposed to be > able to flow the other way. There is a little test procedure on > page TC-14 of the 1992 BGB that tells you to blow each way and > check its condition. Be careful taking it out to check it, I > know of at least 2 people that broke them taking them out. > > Joel C. > 92T > 93T > >Hi all, Just to clarify....my VTV had one end (purple I think that had partially come apart, on removing it the whole end piece came off, with no replacement available I had to make due so I got some really serious chemical bonding stuff (like superglue but stronger) and put things back where they came from. The VTV works as it should as far as I can tell, but seeing as I nothing to compare it to I guess that I'll have to replace it just to be on the safe side. Hope that makes sense. James == MR2T MKII 91 Torrid Red HKS Exhaust TRD Springs TRD Shift Knob Short Shifter K&N Intake Red Dash Overlay (I still like it) (94+ Tail lights) Nology Wires ETC ETC ETC ETC (Will it Ever End Or Shall I Just Spend More) 324 000 kms (Keeping Geoff's Mileage looking Low!!!) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V2 #1000