mr2-digest Monday, January 12 1998 Volume 02 : Number 099 Re: MR2 Home Dyno Re: MR2 rain/corner/boost Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! Re: MR2 Home Dyno Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! MR2 GForce for the MK1 Re: MR2 rain/corner/boost Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! Re: MR2 Re: Re: MR2 the BGB MR2 Turbo Oil Leak? Re: MR2 MKII Turbo Rain + Corner + Boost = ??? RE: MR2 MKI BGB Price ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:10:02 -0500 From: Jamie Dennis Subject: Re: MR2 Home Dyno The inputs (other than sound) that are required by this program are about the same as the CarTest program ( http://biorobotics.ee.washington.edu/BRL/people/phm/fbody/cartst.zip ), with the exception that instead of the CarTest program knowing a hp curve and calculating performance based on this, this program is taking performance (getting RPM from spark plug firing) and calculating a hp graph. Heck, there are formulas for roughly calculating hp from 1/4 mile times and trap speeds, etc... This Home Dyno program seems like it could work, and could definitely let you know about the efectiveness (hp gains) from mods, when tested under the same circumstances (constant temp, same stretch of road, etc). If you know the conditions, you can enter this in, too. Since you are testing from a rolling start, traction should be out of the equation (assuming good clutch condition). The one thing that seems good about this program is that you get a graph of your hp curve, just like at a dyno, and can see hesitations, etc. at different RPMs. This is where I think it would be better than something like the g-tech. Finally... the software in question is only $40 (probably a bit high for the complexity I percieve here, but not too bad)... the $85 is for the inductive pickup, too. He provides instructions for wiring your own for free. Of course, if you knew the algorithm he uses to calculate hp, you could probably do it manually by wiring your own inductive pickup, and bringing your audio into goldwave, etc. to plot out timings, and do the same thing manually (or write a program yourself). Just my thoughts! - -Jamie Dennis '93 Turbo Micky Thutiyakul / Product Engineer wrote: > > I didn't look at the website long...just what it does, and the price > ($80 is not worth it IMHO). > Of course it'll work. Whether it's accurate is another question. > Here's my analysis of this thing (I'm sure people will tell me if > I'm wrong): > 1. This "Home Dyno" requires an inductor hooked up to the engine to count > RPMs, and needs of course gearing info. Basically all this is just a fancy > speedometer. If you get the gearing, circumference of the tire, etc. etc. > correct it'll probably better than the stock speedo. > 2. After digitizing the recording (how much will be lost in the resolution?) > into a .wav file, the program will use it to calculate the acceleration > of the car. > 3. From this, if you get the weight of your car correct (assumming > remaining gas, whether you ate lunch. etc.), and the test area is 100% flat, > it will calculate your power and torque. > > To me this is nothing more than a G-tech with A LOT more variables. Which > is not bad, IF the variables are accurate (but the statistical uncertainty > still goes up, which is bad). Where this setup measures acceleration by > hooking up the inductor, gearing values etc., to get a good speed reading > to calculate acceleration, the G-Tech does it much more > simply...it uses an accelerometer...with a one hundreths resolution > accuracy. > Which method you think is more accurate is of course your own opinion. > After that, everything else is the same. The only thing is, and > according to the website, is that you should "adjust" the parameters > until the HP/Torque readings is up to what you think the HP should > be...Not bad unless you really want to know what the car is putting out at > the rear wheels. > > The graphs look nice, but notice how the sample vehicle is a Z28. > An accuracy of plus or minus 5 hp on a +275 HP car is nothing. > But on low HP cars like the MR2, there's no way this setup is going to tell > you if the new intake is helping make any more HP. You can barely tell that > from a real dyno. Anything you get out of it will be wishful thinking > IMHO. At least with the G-tech you can measure cornering G's. Which > should be fairly accurate (it's just an accelerometer after all), > and is more useful for what the MR2 was designed for. > > Micky > '89 SC MR2 > > > Date: Fri, 09 Jan 1998 21:31:59 -0500 > > From: Phil Cutajar > > Subject: MR2 Home Dyno > > > > > > This looks rather interesting. I just read through the material at the > > web site and it sounds like it could possibly work. Has anyone tried it? > > > > Funny thing is... since this is basically just a computer program, > > anyone could copy it and give it away. The guy should have some kind of > > proctection scheme to prevent this. > > > > I'd be interested in feedback from anyone who knows more about this > > product. > > > > - -- > > Phil Cutajar - -- Misspellers of the world untie! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 13:13:26 -0600 From: Gustavo Pavon Subject: Re: MR2 rain/corner/boost Phil Esra wrote: - - -bobbetting- > I spun at least once at the first few autoxs I ever went to, and > almost never do now. and Randy Chase replied: > Phil....man, I still spin once every 3 or 4 runs. If I aint spinning, I > aint trying hard enough. 8-) I remember reading about Gilles Villeneuve's approach to practice before a race (can anyone validate this? Tommy?): Go progressively faster through the corners until he spun. He would make a mental note of his gear and RPM, then go a notch slower next time around. He would do this for every corner. Gilles we still miss you! I think these days Jean Alesi takes the same approach. He's a blast to watch anytime. Well, I haven't been to an F1 race since 92, and there's a whole new generation of drivers out there. Montreal 98 looks good! Gustavo Pavon Black '91T ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:24:47 -0500 From: "David Aucott" Subject: Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! >If anyone has any q's about the installation / removal of exhaust manifolds >/ Headers... ask me. If anyone has an Idea on why I've got that slight >leak under load, let me know (and don't say the head could be warped, I >heard that from Andrew and George at Minnum). Oh, and Anyone running a TRD >Header... do you have a gasket between the header and the head? I was >thinking that maybe I don't need one, and that's why it's leaking. You should have read my website first!! There are alot of good tips there about the TRD header and why it leaks. Basically it is junk, and be happy you didn't get any gaskets with it. You can solve the leak by putting studs in the head and then using 5 nuts and cranking it down. If that won't do it you have a choice of using two gaskets back to back or getting the header flange milled. It is the header that is bad, not your engine. http://members.aol.com/daucott/Header.html - -- Dave A. daucott@ford.com http://members.aol.com/daucott '86 MR2, '93T MR2, '87 Civic Si, '95 Probe GT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:33:54 -0500 From: Jamie Dennis Subject: Re: MR2 Home Dyno Heck, I've thought about this a bit more in the last few minutes. Does anyone know a formula to calculate how much power is needed to accelerate a car (at a certain rate) on which you know the: weight drag coefficient frontal area tire circumference ratio of gears final drive ratio I'll look around on the web a bit for the info... if anyone has a formula (don't care what unit of power is), please pass it on! Thanks, Jamie wanting to write his own "home dyno" to make freely available on the web! - -- Misspellers of the world untie! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:42:25 -0800 From: Jason Dove Subject: Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! At 02:24 PM 1/12/98 -0500, David Aucott wrote: >>If anyone has any q's about the installation / removal of exhaust manifolds >>/ Headers... ask me. If anyone has an Idea on why I've got that slight >>leak under load, let me know (and don't say the head could be warped, I >>heard that from Andrew and George at Minnum). Oh, and Anyone running a TRD >>Header... do you have a gasket between the header and the head? I was >>thinking that maybe I don't need one, and that's why it's leaking. > >You should have read my website first!! There are alot of good tips there >about the TRD header and why it leaks. Basically it is junk, and be happy you >didn't get any gaskets with it. You can solve the leak by putting studs in the >head and then using 5 nuts and cranking it down. If that won't do it you have >a choice of using two gaskets back to back or getting the header flange milled. > It is the header that is bad, not your engine. > >http://members.aol.com/daucott/Header.html > =) I would have, but I don't have web access. Um, I didn't have much choice, the manifold, header (with the slink) pipe and the pipe after that one cost more than the TRD header did (I needed all 3). Why not just try cranking it down more with the bolts, or will it strip the head? Could I also try to crank it down with the engine hot? Anyway, it's not leaking much, and only when it's not idling, but just enough to bug me. Jason Dove, Vancouver, BC, Canada '87 Toyota MR2 NA K&N Air Filter Crane Cam Ignition Coil Chrome TRD Header HKS Exhaust ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:45:37 -0500 From: "David Aucott" Subject: Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! >=) I would have, but I don't have web access. Um, I didn't have much >choice, the manifold, header (with the slink) pipe and the pipe after that >one cost more than the TRD header did (I needed all 3). Why not just try >cranking it down more with the bolts, or will it strip the head? Could I >also try to crank it down with the engine hot? Anyway, it's not leaking >much, and only when it's not idling, but just enough to bug me. Don't arbitrarily crank on the bolts that go into the head since it's aluminum. That's one of the advantages of the studs, they hold torque better and you can give them a little more w/o worrying. I'd suggest you put on a second gasket, and it should be a TOYOTA gasket. - -- Dave A. daucott@ford.com http://members.aol.com/daucott '86 MR2, '93T MR2, '87 Civic Si, '95 Probe GT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:57:25 -0500 From: "David Aucott" Subject: MR2 GForce for the MK1 I have spoken with GForce and they are "working on" a programmable ECU mod similar to what they did for the MK2 in the SCC article. According to them they are 90% of the way done but haven't pursued finishing it for "lack of interest in the product." I don't know about you, but it'd be nice to have a fully programmable ECU at a reasonable cost. They want $725 for the modification plus the cost of the software if you want to program it yourself. Would anyone be interested in this? If so I'll post the number and you can all call GForce and request one. Maybe they'd finish the calibration. - -- Dave A. daucott@ford.com http://members.aol.com/daucott '86 MR2, '93T MR2, '87 Civic Si, '95 Probe GT ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:59:55 -0800 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: MR2 rain/corner/boost Gustavo Pavon wrote: > > I remember reading about Gilles Villeneuve's approach to practice > before a race (can anyone validate this? Tommy?): Go progressively > faster through the corners until he spun. He would make a mental note > of his gear and RPM, then go a notch slower next time around. He would > do this for every corner. Gilles we still miss you! Yeah, I don't know how else you find out where 10/10ths really is. It doesn't mean you always loop it, but until you feel the tires losing grip, how would you know how hard you can push it. Of course, for those doing road racing, it would help to have a crew and large budget to replace those cars you wrecked. 8) Another good reason to autox. I frankly, on a practice day (sorry course workers!) will push it as fast as I think I can and then a little bit more. It's the only way to find out if I can or can't do an offset, slalom, or turn at a certain speed. Besides, it's fun to loop the car. I just hate the face full of grit and tire dust. P.S. thanks Geoff for the alternate plate ideas. I will let you know when I get my tape of spins done. 8-) Randy Chase '91 MR2 N/A *Often Sideways* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 12:10:35 -0800 From: Mike Chou Subject: Re: MR2 - MKI Emmisions Testing & HKS Exhaust/TRD Headers & Flats! > Why not just try > cranking it down more with the bolts, or will it strip the head? Could I > also try to crank it down with the engine hot? Anyway, it's not leaking > much, and only when it's not idling, but just enough to bug me. > > Jason Dove, Vancouver, BC, Canada > > '87 Toyota MR2 NA > K&N Air Filter > Crane Cam Ignition Coil > Chrome TRD Header > HKS Exhaust Can't the head be resurfaced? Or the header if it's not flat? Or is this not the problem? Just wonderin'.... Mike C ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:05:41 -0500 From: Steve Bagdon Subject: Re: MR2 Re: > I think (unless it's been changed) that you can send it to any one of > those, including Majordomo. This is from the listserv: > Someone (possibly you) has requested that your email address be added > to or deleted from the mailing list "mr2@slapshot.hockey.net". > > If you really want this action to be taken, please send the following > commands (exactly as shown) back to "Majordomo@slapshot.hockey.net" > > If you ever want to remove yourself from this mailing list, > you can send mail to with the following > command in the body of your email message: > > So, I think either way works. Someone let me know if I am wrong. 8) I just remember how mr2-digest@validgh.com worked, from the user side. It was send a message to mr2, mr2-digest or mr2-announce @validgh.com. There were a lot of admin methods (including approve lines in major), but I was going to limit this to user options. > By the way, Ken is not leaving, he is changing his address. Duh. Of > course, I should have thought of it. No one leaves "the list", even if > they sell their MR2..right? 8-) > > *you can check out any time you like...but you can never leave* 'With your shield, or on your sheild'... Steve B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 15:05:40 -0500 From: Steve Bagdon Subject: Re: MR2 the BGB > So... my question.... exactly how many versions of these books > are there? Which is the ideal one for my me? (I wan't copies too!) > I have a UK 1988 Mk1 NA Tbar. > If you know where I can get copies PLEASE let me know! My (US) '86, '87 and '88 manuals are all one volume, and my (US) '91 manual is two volumes. Then it gets wierd. My '90 Camry All-Trac uses a two volume set, but it has 2 engines (I4 and V6), 6(!!!) trannies (I4 manual and auto, for both 2wd and 4wd, and V6 manual and auto), 2 kinds of rear brakes (drum for I4 and disc for V6 and I4 All-Trac), plus the All-Trac rear-end stuff/etc. Now *that's* a car that deserves two volumes. One thing I noticed is that Toyota went heavy on 'special' stuff (All-Trac and convertable), but now they are making them part of 'normal' manual set. Steve B. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:32:35 -0600 From: "Nathan Dyck" Subject: MR2 Turbo Oil Leak? Hi Dave, I had a little oil leaking around the turbo for a while on my car as well. (91T w 86K) I replaced the short hose($17) and hose clamps from the turbo exit. It's about 2 inches long. I think my hose was ok, but the clamps were not in good shape. So far the problem is fixed, but from what I understand, it's not unusual to have a bit of oil in this area if you drive hard through corners with the boost on. (comes from the crank case vent) Since I fixed this leak, the car has been using much less oil. (See someone's previous post about lack of pressure causing oil to leak from the bearings.) Of course it may be something entirely different on your car. :) Nathan Dyck >Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 11:32:06 EST >From: Daucott >Subject: MR2 Turbo Oil Leak? > >While replacing my transmission I noticed there was oil residue on the bottom >of the turbo and in the areas below the turbo. I suppose some of it may have >come from the cam cover (screws were loose when I got the car), but there was >"fresh" oil on the underside of the turbo. Is it possible for the turbo to >lose oil to the outside of the housing? I did notice a little oil in the >intake tube when I removed the intake box, but I figured that was "normal" for >an 80K miles turbo. Should I look to the turbo or elsewhere for the oil >source? Thanks. > >Dave A. >daucott@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 14:49:15 -0600 From: Gustavo Pavon Subject: Re: MR2 MKII Turbo Rain + Corner + Boost = ??? Steve Bagdon wrote: > But that's the part that makes it so difficult - you're correcting for a >spin that hasn't actually happened yet. Say you're exiting a freeway, and > take a right clover leaf, in the middle, you start to spin. But to correct > the spin, you have to start correcting the spin before the spin occurs. So > you are turning the steering wheel to the right, *know* the spin is going > to occur, then turn the steering wheel to the left (to correct) and back > right (to continue the turn). If you have a chance, observe (don't just watch!) the hands of Michael Shumacher from an in-car camera shot, especially in the rain or in qualifying. He does just what you described. He is able to *predict* how much opposite input his car needs *before* it needs it. He is probably also playing all sorts of tricks with the pedals - wish they had the pedal-cam in F1!. That is part of what makes him such a unique driver, his race manners aside. By the way, I predict the 98 world champion will be driving a Ferrari, and it will not be Eddie Irvine. > Can you imagine the look on someone's face > when you turn the wheel to the left on a right turn, to keep a spin from > not happening (as as the spin didn't happen, they won't believe that you > were going to spin out)? I would not care much about what a passenger believes or not... if it becomes an issue tell him/her to drive through the same cloverleaf at the same speed on their car... (and don't be a passenger yourself, it might be dangerous :-) What is important is to develop the skill, confidence, and knowledge of you car's limits. I believe Auto-X gives you all that. Malibu style go-karts (SpeedZone nowadays) are also a fun way to develop your skills. > Sort of a catch-22, isn't it? Not really if you can avoid the spin! > Steve B. Gustavo Pavon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 16:04:54 -0500 From: "Daniel Wetherbee" Subject: RE: MR2 MKI BGB Price >> The Toyota dealer here wants $85.00 for the 1988 MR2 BGB. My dealer (John Elway - GO Bronco's) quoted me $75 for a 1986 BGB. >> 1-800-622-2033 >> I think the 88 manual is $55 and all of the other MKI manuals are $45. I called them and they quoted me $80 (including shipping to Colorado) for the '86 BGB. >Dan Wetherbee ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V2 #99