mr2-digest Sunday, January 4 1998 Volume 02 : Number 056 MR2 silver state/nevada challenge NEW MR2 Style Wing. Fw: MR2 - MK1 Problems with Emmisions MR2 Re: mkii convertable Re: MR2 MK1: TRD 272 cams, how much Hp to expect using standard computer MR2 SC for sale Re: MR2 Turbo VSV Operation Re: MR2 MKII T clutch (or lack thereof) Re: MR2 MKII Exhaust manifold Re: MR2 Re: mkii convertable Re: MR2 Insurance Rates Re: MR2 Insurance Rates Re: MR2 MKII: Heater Re: MR2 MKII-T 91/92 vs. 93 MR2 MK1: TRD 272 Cams, track tested. I think I need bigger injectors. Re: MR2 Turbo VSV Operation RE: MR2 Turbo VSV Operation ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 21:57:49 -0008 From: TerrySaltzman@home.com Subject: MR2 silver state/nevada challenge the nevada challenge is this spring... forward... here is some info i posted within the last few dayz. i am not planning to run in this high of a bracket (over 125 or so, you get into very specialized tech req.) i will probably run in the touring class 95-110mph. FAQs http://www.phenry.com/sscc/silver/faq.htm this address will TELL YOU what YOU will do and not do. http://www.phenry.com/sscc/silver/rules4.htm rots-o-ruck and see you there, terry ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:03:30 -0700 From: "McQuillin, Gordon" Subject: NEW MR2 Style Wing. > For all those interested in the new style of wing on the 98' MR2 (or > is it 97' ?), If you look in the Feb Sports Compact Car issue on page > 128 there is an ad for TC Spoilers and the bottem left picture shows > what I am sure is a silver colored MKII with what they call the "New > Universal GTR Style Wing" which looks like the new MR2's wing. Their > phone number is 626/527-6998, and if anyone calls them I'd love to > know how much they want for the wing, although I am already planning > on the Aeroware wing. Hope this info is of use to someone. Have a > great weekend. > > Gordon McQuillin > 91'T Black ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 00:12:28 -0600 From: "Andrew P. Tasi" Subject: Fw: MR2 - MK1 Problems with Emmisions Hello everybody. I am posting this for Jason Dove . When responding, please include this address. >----Original Message----- >>Hey Guyz, I'm trying to post this from work (I'm hoping it will work). >>I've got an '87 NA, I'm in Richmond BC (Canada). Well, I just failed >>AirCare, Big time... I scored a 1150 ppm on the HydroCarbons, max of 300. >>Anyhow, I'm guessing O2 Sensor... HC's have nothing to do with the Cat, >>right? Well, I run off to Minnum Racing here in Richmond, and I got a >>Carbon Blast done on the car (I'll admit, it runs better). While we were >>doing the blast, we found a big huge crack/hole in my header. Ontop of >>that, my exhaust is pretty nuked (I knew that already). The >>downpipe/Cat/exhaust are all fused together with rust. Now, if I replace >>anything, I put in performance stuff. I want to put in a TRD header, stock >>Cat, HKS exhaust and a new O2 Sensor (skip this if I can). O2 sensors are >>worth 100+ dollars aren't they? >> >>Problems I see are: >> >> $$$ (all these at once... hmm I figure 1300-1500 CAD, at best)(then I >>get my ass taxed off after that too) >> Even If I don't get the HKS and the TRD, It's still going to be around >1000 >> Can't test O2 Sensor to see if it's nuked or not (Not in Haynes Manual, >>can anyone help?) >> Deadline is January 9th, if I don't get it fixed by then...then I'm >screwed >> I can't just fix one thing, then run it through again over and over, >>it's $20 a run through. >> >>Thanx for any help, >> Jason > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 22:09:14 -0008 From: TerrySaltzman@home.com Subject: MR2 Re: mkii convertable wow i really like that convertable! just needs a 92 "wing" and aeroware vents and i own it! whats the "deal" with these? terry ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:29:38 EST From: Daucott Subject: Re: MR2 MK1: TRD 272 cams, how much Hp to expect using standard computer In a message dated 98-01-01 11:28:37 EST, ecleong@mail.usyd.edu.au writes: > I was told that the TRD 272 cams are good for 150hp, what mods are > required for that kinda power? I remember Dave A had about 140hp with; > Cams, porting, pistons, hi compression (I dunno what else Dave?) Im > convinced that Im no where near 150hp, am I doing something wrong? I > would say that there would be a 10hp increase tops, what is the best Hp > I could hope for with the standard computer? Make that around 152 dynoed crank hp (129 rear wheel hp) and a guesstimated 155-160 hp after changing injectors (never got back to the dyno). Race ported head 5 angle valve job, valves unshrouded 10.9:1 compression, ceramic and slip coated Web cams Intake pinned/port matched with TVIS, Powermax system TRD header, no cat, HKS exhuast on dyno, Supertrapp not dynoed (but stronger) TRD light flywheel Modified AFM (dynoed), larger injectors w/stock AFM (not dynoed, but stronger) Incidentally, this engine never fully seated the rings so it was running under it's potential. My compression numbers were 200 which I feel is low for that compression (I'd expect around 220) and I had oil burn problems. However, this engine screamed and was a blast in my MR2. No power loss all the way to fuel cut. I believe there is potentially 180 crank hp in my engine, and hopefully the buyer will extract that power with current planned mods of Totalseal rings and computer mods (yet to be determined) and proper fuel tuning. Anyway, with just cam changes, intake, exhaust, and AFM mods I made around 115 wheel hp, or 130 crank hp. This was a tired engine and with proper compression I'd have expected another 5hp at the wheels. Dave A. daucott@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 01:37:53 EST From: Luvmr2 Subject: MR2 SC for sale Hey everybody. Chris Conrad here (I am on break for school so I am using AOL for now :( Ok, well i found this ad on the AOL classifieds.... E-mail him at YIN1235@aol.com I don't know him, i only found the ad. >Subj: 89 supercharge MR-2$4500 >Date: 98-01-04 00:24:36 EST blue/blue, 79000 miles runs good, t-top power everything, in L.A, automatic ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 22:59:48 -0800 From: Karen or Jeffrey Subject: Re: MR2 Turbo VSV Operation At 03:39 PM 1/3/98 -0500, Burns, James B. wrote: >wastegate actuator pressure and thus allow full boost. But my LED >indicates that it de-energizes any time I have positive manifold >pressure. I'm still getting full boost, but the LED goes out as soon as >pressure gets above zero and comes back on when boost drops below zero. > >Is my understanding of the VSV operation wrong? Maybe it is actually >energized to limit boost, and if it senses something wrong like cold >inlet air or detonation or something, then it wouldn't turn off at >positive manifold pressure and it would limit my boost by remaining >energized? > >Any of you boost heads out there know the answer? If you look on FI-165 of BGB 1991, the turbo VSV shows up as a resistor in the circuit diagram. The turbo VSV always has +12V, so the engine ECU allows the ground. Hence, the strange activity of the light. If you use another relay, you could probably reverse the behavior of the light to a more intuitive one (i.e. light on -- turbo VSV working) >BTW, in case anyone is interested in doing this mod, I got the idea from >http://alabanza.com/tsnet/ledmod/howto.htm. Well that hurts, I suppose I won't give you anymore ideas in the future! :) - - Jeffrey ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:23:16 -0800 From: Karen or Jeffrey Subject: Re: MR2 MKII T clutch (or lack thereof) At 08:54 PM 1/3/98 -0800, Matt Gawlowski wrote: >community! Unfortunately, it is tragedy which has brought me back, >though not with my MR2, but a friend's. We'll be working on it first >thing tomorrow morning, and she REALLY needs the car working ASAP if at >all possible, hence the use of the 'announce'...sorry! Is this the friend that came to the Golden State Rally? :) Matt, it's been my experience that clutches can and will go out suddenly causing some very difficult shifting. Sounds like a clutch disc spring popped out or similar clutch disc damage has occurred. Check the clutch fluid, if it's still there, I doubt it's hyrdaulic related. It sounds like she needs a new clutch. Have fun! BTW, driving a turbocharged car by lugging it in a higher gear is generally a bad idea. Have her tow it next time :) - - Jeffrey p.s. the list server has changed since your absence. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 3 Jan 1998 23:45:40 -0800 (PST) From: Rick Wootten Subject: Re: MR2 MKII Exhaust manifold Actually I was wondering this as well. Rick 92T On Sat, 3 Jan 1998, Henry wrote: > A while back, you guys were talking about the warranty for the emission > system/exhaust manifold thingy, and the EGR tube. I was wondering how > can I tell if mine is defective and what are the symptoms? And how do I > inspect the EGR tube? > > Henry > 93 Aquamarine Turbo > ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 03 Jan 1998 23:49:15 -0800 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: MR2 Re: mkii convertable I think the car looks very good as a convertible. Is this only one of these? I wonder if these could be made by some conversion company. Has anyone checked into it, or is it horribly expensive. I know they usually use new cars and do a quantity of them. Randy Chase *full of lobster, duck, venison, and truffles* urp '91 MR2 N/A ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 02:53:36 -0500 From: alain@voicenet.com Subject: Re: MR2 Insurance Rates Well, after all the past posts on insurance rates, I called around to compare, feeling that I was paying WAY too much...so I called EVERY insurance agent in the yellow pages, and not a single one could come within $1000 of my current rates. Currently I pay $2600 a year for my 93 NA MR2 and an 88 Dodge Daytona. Full coverage on the MR2, $250 deductible. Closest rates I could get from another company were higher deductibles, lower insurance coverages, and then the best I could get ANYWHERE was $3700 a year. I guess being 19 with 3 points on your license and an accident 3 years ago is just 1 too many strikes against me :/ So I wish all you young ones out there good luck in your quest for lower insurance rates...mine stopped with me paying $646 every 3 months... Allen Herbst 93 NA 70k km >Olga e kay pasta > >David H.'s response to the 'new member' regarding their comment about high >insurance for a MR2 Turbo got me wondering about rates around the country. >What are you all paying per year? What model and year MR2? Full coverage? >Location? >T.Guy >93 Teal Turbo $1200/year Full coverage Reno, NV >P.S. What in the world is 'trunking'? > ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 03:20:51 -0600 From: "Chris King" Subject: Re: MR2 Insurance Rates > Currently I pay $2600 a year for my 93 NA MR2 and an 88 Dodge Daytona. > Full coverage on the MR2, $250 deductible. Closest rates I could get from > another company were higher deductibles, lower insurance coverages, and > then the best I could get ANYWHERE was $3700 a year. I guess being 19 with > 3 points on your license and an accident 3 years ago is just 1 too many > strikes against me :/ I am 19 and pay now pay $680 for full coverage every six months on my 91 NA. I used to own an 89 Daytona and the insurance on it was something in the range of $2200 a year. Interesing points on my insurance: I save $220 for good student, 40.00 for multi car at our house, and $8.25 for airbag. My insurance went down $20 this six months and I also just received a check for $120 back because "claims were lower than expected". I use State Farm by the way. I really liked the free $120 though. That was truly a suprise! What's more... I have been in one accident that was charged as my fault and have had 4 tickets since getting my license. 2 have been erased with the stupid safety class. Some reason though, I really don't seem to be getting burnt all that much. I did have to change insurance because when I got the accident and tickets my insurance jumped greatly but it has now come down quite reasonable. Chris K. 91 NA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 05:29:17 -0400 From: bagdon@rust.net (S and K Bagdon) Subject: Re: MR2 MKII: Heater >How can I check whether my MR2 has a heater? I had tried push it all the >way to the right (red indicator) and it still giving me cold air. I >bought it few months ago and not sure whether it comes with a heater. >Would it be a problem and the A/C? >Thanks for your advise. Flush and refill your coolant completely. Steve B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 05:52:10 -0400 From: bagdon@rust.net (S and K Bagdon) Subject: Re: MR2 MKII-T 91/92 vs. 93 >> The only way to verify this for certain is with a Dyno. However, I think >> you're chasing wild geese here. The 3SGTE engine was not changed between >> 92/93, at least no changes that I've ever heard or read about. The one > >I might add that my stock '93T kicked the crap out of Steve B's stock '91T by >nearly 25 rear wheel hp. State of tune is critical and could account for the >differences, not to mention the fact that some engines just produce more power >than others, even off the same assy line. Well, 'kicked the crap' might be a big much. I was producing 158hp (rear wheel), or about 196hp fly wheel. 4hp flywheel loss over 91k miles, and under non-perfect test condition (but we both suffered from that!), sure isn't tha bad. I seem to remember you in the 165-170hp range (which is still darn good), but that sure isn't 25 rear-wheel hp. And we'll argue this for a long time, but I believe you're running about 1psi more then I am. But that's another thread... :) I believe what I was trying to say was that the basic engines are the same (block, head, etc), except for some minor 'refinements' - '94+ overbored throttle body, late-model year's MAF, etc? I believe this entire thread was started by someone who wanted to import a '98 MR2 3S-GTE for the more power, but most people appear to agree that it would be easier to take any year 3S-GTE and build it up (aside from some engines being 'better from the factory' then others). There isn't enough (significant!) differences year-to-year to justify going through the expense of importing an engine (bad $/hp ratios), at least in my opinion. The money you spend to import the engine and have it installed would be better spent on improving your currently installed engine. Steve B. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 21:09:29 +1000 From: Robin San Subject: MR2 MK1: TRD 272 Cams, track tested. I think I need bigger injectors. Hi guys Following on from the last few posts about my cams, I finally got to the track. What I found was that on part throttle it was really positive, however on full out throttle something was lacking, like it wasnt reving out. Also what I found was that even on 7 tooth richer on the MAF my exhaust tips didnt have any black deposits at all, was clean as a whistle. Infact there was a light coating of grey/brown deposits. Driving around the city at low revs and part throttle black soot does get deposited on the exhaust tip. Additionally after a hot start, the engine will bog down, probably because its too rich at idle. Im assuming that the standard injectors are ok in open loop but when it comes to closed loop, "flat out" throttle its leaning out. Also the Australian 4AGEs had 150cc injectors, which are smaller than the US ones, that may explain why I havent been able to reproduce the same performance as some of you guys, even with the same settings and better fuel(96RON). So what injectors should I change to? Would 4AGZE injectors be too much, I have access to these. Maybe I should change to the US spec injectors, they flow about 200cc???? Thanks for any feedback Robin San 89 MK1 NA ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 04 Jan 1998 16:05:19 +0200 From: "Kostas G.D.Chryssos Ph.D." Subject: Re: MR2 Turbo VSV Operation At 15:39 3/1/1998 -0500, you wrote: >I just installed an LED (next to my A-pillar mounted boost gauge) to >monitor operation of the turbo VSV valve. I spliced it into the wire >from the ECU to the VSV. It was my understanding that 12v was normally >applied to the VSV which opened it, allowing it to bleed off some >wastegate actuator pressure and thus allow full boost. But my LED >indicates that it de-energizes any time I have positive manifold >pressure. I'm still getting full boost, but the LED goes out as soon as >pressure gets above zero and comes back on when boost drops below zero. > >Is my understanding of the VSV operation wrong? Maybe it is actually >energized to limit boost, and if it senses something wrong like cold >inlet air or detonation or something, then it wouldn't turn off at >positive manifold pressure and it would limit my boost by remaining >energized? > >Any of you boost heads out there know the answer? > >BTW, in case anyone is interested in doing this mod, I got the idea from >http://alabanza.com/tsnet/ledmod/howto.htm. I spliced into the ECU to >VSV wire (blue w/orange stripe), then soldered in a resistor and the LED >in series, then grounded the other end of the LED to a bolt under the >dash. I used a blue LED since (to me) a red light indicates a >malfunction, and also because I have a blue interior. The VSV wires are >in a very tight location under the intake manifold and working with them >is difficult, so this project was more difficult than I anticipated. > >Brad Burns >'91T, white, hardtop, 17K miles, '94 taillights, clear corners, no >emblems, BBS PA wheels, Japanese accessory cupholder, HKS turbo timer, >Alpine CD with upgraded speakers and bass tube, Ken Farrell leather >shift boot, Tokicos, TRD front swaybar with '94 endlinks, A-pillar >Autometer boost gauge and VSV LED > (the car is pretty much stock, but all this stuff sounds impressive, >huh?) > >'93NA, 7K miles, yellow hardtop > Hi there, OK first why did you not tap the wires at the ECU side but had to do it under the intake manifold? Would have been much easier there. Then on the 12 V from the ECU. Seems that the ECU will put the led out at above zero pressure, but we do not know how the valve works. Could be that it opens with 0 volts, leaking till the high boost level is reached to switch ON and stop the leak...did you take the boost all the way up to the limit?. In this respect it would work as follows: + 12V from vacume to zero boost indicating a blocked valve to avoid leakage of air (which would not go through the air flow meter and cause errors in normal operation). 0 V over zero boost and up indicating a leaking valve to fool the wastegate. + 12V back on say close to 0.9 Bar for instant wastegate operetion. (no creaping). How about this??? I have not checked it but could be like that. Kostas G.D.Chryssos Ph.D. ELFON Ltd., 30 Ikarias str., GLYFADA 16675 Athens, HELLAS (GREECE) Tel: ++ 30-1-9628212 Fax: ++ 30-1-9649833 e-mail: sv1bt@compulink.gr / sv1bt@otenet.gr ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 10:09:14 -0500 From: "Burns, James B." Subject: RE: MR2 Turbo VSV Operation Kostas Chryssos said: Then on the 12 V from the ECU. Seems that the ECU will put the led out at above zero pressure, but we do not know how the valve works. Could be that it opens with 0 volts, leaking till the high boost level is reached to switch ON and stop the leak...did you take the boost all the way up to the limit?. In this respect it would work as follows: + 12V from vacume to zero boost indicating a blocked valve to avoid leakage of air (which would not go through the air flow meter and cause errors in normal operation). 0 V over zero boost and up indicating a leaking valve to fool the wastegate. + 12V back on say close to 0.9 Bar for instant wastegate operetion. (no creaping). How about this??? I have not checked it but could be like that. No, the LED stays out even when I reach max boost (about 11.5 psi on my car). I think you are right that it shuts the valve at vacuum to keep air from leaking the other way. (Seems like a little check valve would have been a simpler design.) Then it opens the valve at positive pressure to allow max boost unless something is wrong, then it keeps the valve shut to limit max boost. Keeping the valve open allows the full boost. If it shut when I reached 11.5 psi, then the boost would drop back down to about 7 psi. Brad ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V2 #56