mr2-digest Friday, January 2 1998 Volume 02 : Number 047 MR2 Re: Americans vs. Japanese Re: MR2 Update on the "Beast" MR2 MkII: Two sets of '93 repair manuals? MR2 MKII: Production number again: MR2 Re: MKII ABS Systems MR2 Mk1 handling/tire sizes MR2 MkII on TV MR2 Re: MKII Instrument Cluster Re: MR2 MK1 timing belt change Double MR2 TV sighting MR2 MKI Starter concerns. MR2 Terantino, Robert, Jacki and Mr 2 Re: MR2 MK1 HYPERREV MR2 MKII shift knob Re: MR2 MK1 HYPERREV Re: MR2 MkII : Brake Pad Sizes, Differences? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 18:56:42 -0800 From: Steve N Subject: MR2 Re: Americans vs. Japanese > You probably realize that American engines were never efficient is because > fuel has always been cheap here in the states. Other countries pay small > fortunes for their gasoline, and many have TAXES based on engine size! > That's why European (and then Japanese) engines were always small, > powerful, efficient designs. What Joe is saying is right on. When you are given greater leadway when desgining something, you will not spend as much time making it more efficent, and will usually do just enough to fullfill the needed requirments. In other words, you are lazy, or you were not given the budget to do so. >From an aspiring Mecanical engineer's point of view, the difference between Japanese and American cars is very easily seen. There was obviously more thought put into desging the imports vs the domestics. For example, when most people look at Japanese cars, the usually comment how cramped the engine compartments looks. This for an engineer would be a compliment, seeing as it takes much more skill and effort in desgining products that just fits. It is much harder to make something that just works, over somethig that is over-engineered. And while the American cars are different, I still respect them, just not as much. When thinking about all the time and thought that it takes to make a modern automobile with every little thing working together, it still amazes me. A big pet peeve of domestic vs fogien is simply the steering feel. I find the numbness of todays domestics maddeding vs the forgien competion. The Mr2 has so much better road feel and can be driven down a road straight without the need to make hundreds of minor corrections through a numb steering wheel. As far as crazy stuff while done in High school, I have a good share of stories of how I was the terror of the town in my mom's 87 crown vic police edition. It ramped real good, liked to eat a set of new tires in 4k miles, fishtail around EVERY corner, and made nice donuts. Boy the cops in that town just LOVED me. Oh yea, there was also 2 engine rebuilds in a span of 15k miles, not my fault though, promise! I will have to say though, handbrake manuvers in the MR2 are not very effective, at least not vs. their FWD counterparts. Steve N. who witnessed a 17 cop car stand off last night with a guy who attacked a police officer. The things you see at the fireworks stand! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 18:02:39 -0800 From: Steve N Subject: Re: MR2 Update on the "Beast" > Bought new sensor. Reduced timing from 14 deg BTDC to 12deg BTDC. Mixed a > 50/50 batch of Amoco 93 and 130 LL aviation fuel with 1/4 bottle of octane > booster and no more problems with detonation. Just a quick word about this to Jim, and to all of those who have thought about using aviation fuel in their Misters, or any modern car for that matter. There is lead in aviation fuel, lots of it. Lead does 2 bad things to a modern car with an O2 sensor. It will quickly foul the O2 sensor, and will clog the catalitic converter. I am pretty sure Jim has his cats gutted, but the only alternative to the O2 sensor problem is, I belive that Bosch makes a special high dollar O2 senor that works with leaded gas. Also, the octance ratings used in aviation fuel is different than automobile fuel. Be careful, and look up the gasoline FAQ on the net before playing with different fuel, it is real good reading, over 100 pages. One last thing is that from the studies I have seen, octane booster gives a very small increase, and sometimes will actually lower octane. Steve N. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 98 14:43:50 From: gseeley@island.net (Geoff Seeley) Subject: MR2 MkII: Two sets of '93 repair manuals? While I was in at my local dealer to get an alignment, I inquired about a set of '93 BGB's and much to my surprize, she (my parts lady) brought in two sets of books: 1. RM285U1, RM285U2 - 1st printing Feb. 92? 2. RM308U1, RM308U2 (August 1992-) - 1st printing Sept 92? EWD144U Electrical Wiring Diagrams (same for both sets) I took a quick look through them to compare but I didn't notice any obvious differences. Anyone know the reason for a second set of books? BTW, I ordered the latest (RM308) volume... I *did* notice that the '93 manuals are MUCH more detailed than the '91 BGB... Geoff '91, 226,450km ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 09:26:59 +0800 From: Ivan Wong Subject: MR2 MKII: Production number again: My chasis number is JT163SW2000023675 and b checking the production number chart, we found out that the car was made in Aug90. And then I checked the engine number, it is 3S-9120819. Would this number represent something? My instinct told me that 3S is the engine name, 91 is the model year and "2" is the digit I dunno. Would 0819 be the date of production? Regards, iVan 91 Red 3SGE 51000km ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:37:13 -0500 From: "Burns, James B." Subject: MR2 Re: MKII ABS Systems >Randy, >I've heard that the MR2's ABS system in '91 wasn't very good. Had a low >pulsing rate or something like that. But I can say that the ABS on my >'94T was fantastic. I used to have ABS on my '89 Acura Legend (the ABS >is now disabled since I didn't want to pay $1800 to fix it), and it >would start pulsing way before the lockup threshold. But on the '94T >the ABS system did threshold braking for you. The tires would actually >chirp while the ABS system was working. > >Most autoxers and racers prefer not to have ABS, but I really liked it >on the MR2. I remember a couple of times where there was a weird >transition leading into a turn, and I could hammer the brakes very late >while steering through the transition. The car would be bouncing around >violently, but I could brake and steer it through the section where >everyone else had to brake earlier. Of course, the '93+ turbos have >some really awesome brakes anyway. On my '91T without ABS I find that I >lock my brakes sometimes during autox, and I also locked my brakes >fairly regularly at turn 5 at Summit Point. This turn has a very short >downhill braking area going from ~100 mph down to about 30. I also >noticed that Carter Thompson locks his brakes fairly regularly during >autox competition in his '91T. > >BTW, many of the FIA GT cars now have ABS systems, so it appears that >even the world's best drivers can benefit from a properly designed and >calibrated ABS system. On the other hand, GM's ABS systems seem to be >total crap. Every one I've driven has a very spongy pedal, and I've >heard of several incidents where it totally failed in an emergency and >caused an accident. > >Brad Burns ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:47:49 -0800 (PST) From: momosc@sasquatch.com Subject: MR2 Mk1 handling/tire sizes Hi Sammy makes excellent points about Mk1 and mid-engined car handing. It's true that Mk1's from '86 on do understeer and that running bigger tires rear than front only exacerbates (not a dirty word) the problem. I remember the Lamborghini Silhouette ran drastically smaller wheel/tire combo in the front and understeered quite a bit. (Looked gorgeous, tho...) Sammy is honest in his appraisal of the energy required to keep a short wheelbase car on the road when it's set up loose and you're tired. On my '87 I run 205/40-16's front and 215's rear. When I had 15's, I ran 195's front ane 205's rear (50 series). My primary reasons were 1) After many years in the exotic car business, i can't recall ever seeing a mid-engined car with same sized combo front to rear, and 2) I simply like the way the car sits when static. My car will understeer in high-slip-angle manuevers such as auto-x or skid pad work. This is why I don't bother auto-x ing it. To get it set up to rotate well at auto-x, I'd have a very scary set-up fior the street. When I practice on the skidpad, I can thru my driving, achieve nice 4 wheel drifts but i have to be very careful to let the car rotate at modest slip angles and not turn the front wheels too much to do this. OR, I can simply crank my rear Tokicos up one notch (I normally run 1 front and 3 rear). With the rears set at 4 I have a nice tail-happy car. Anyway, getting back to my normal, slightly understeering setup, I find that it translates to absolute stability on the racetrack. I can achieve beautiful 4 wheel drifts at will and can throttle out of tighter corners with a slightly oversteering attitude. Last point: Insufficient power also contributes to understeer. I read an interview with Riley of Riley and Scott, and he spoke of one of his drivers complaining about understeer at the same time his engine went down a cylinder. Riley wouldn't touch the chassis till the engine was back to making full power. When it was, the balance came back. When I complete my engine swap (AE-92 into AW-11), I'll have to learn to drive my car all over again. I suspect it will be less of an understeerer. Sorry for the long post--it didn't start out that way :) Mo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:52:17 -0800 (PST) From: momosc@sasquatch.com Subject: MR2 MkII on TV Hi Has this one already been reported? On a syndicated show named "Silk Stalkings" the last car in the title sequence is an ariel view of a red MkII. I think it's meant to evoke a Ferrari, cuz there's a White Testarossa in there too. Mo ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:55:24 -0500 From: "Burns, James B." Subject: MR2 Re: MKII Instrument Cluster T. Guy said: >I'm curious about something. I've owned a 92 NA and presently own a 93 T >and their instrument clusters were identical (with the exception of the >turbo gauge between the speedo and tach). The speedometers are also different for the NA and turbo. The turbo speedo goes up to 160, the NA goes to 140. The tachs are different too since the engines have different redlines. In '93 the speedo went electric vice mechanical, and this also changed the odometer to a pulse motor driven type. They also added a fog light indicator in '93 (I liked this on my '94, might have to add an LED or something on my '91). Brad Burns ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 21:11:00 -0600 From: "Andrew P. Tasi" Subject: Re: MR2 MK1 timing belt change [Snip, snip!] - -----Original Message----- >My take: you will need to change it eventually. If you do it now, you don't >have the opportunity to encounter this kind of event. And if you do it when >you want to schedule it, you don't have the hassle of "unscheduled" work. > >-Renni Good point, and let's not forget the *expense* of unscheduled work. I found a Minnesota Toyota dealer willing to do timing belts for $200 and change. Find a dealer and get it done. Otherwise you might be on a road trip and needing to spend more money for somebody less qualified to do it. My $0.02, Andrew P. Tasi Black '88 MR2 T-top ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 98 19:14:14 From: gseeley@island.net (Geoff Seeley) Subject: Double MR2 TV sighting I just watched a show on The Learning Channel called: "The Very Best of the World's Worst Drivers" Lots of footage (mostly from UK and Europe) including some of the footage from the famous underground Ferrari F-40 video where the owner is doing 300+kph on public roads (owner was busted after selling it to an undercover cop :) Anyway, the first MR2 sighting was what must have been a supercharged (judging by the speed) MkI (red) outrunning the police in the UK. He was basically outrunning even the helicopter that was following him but he came up on slower traffic and bolted into the oncoming traffic lane where guess what? There was oncoming traffic! Shortly after the T-bone, a couple of police motorcycles pulled up (he was outrunning them too!) The second sighting was a white MkI (again in the UK I think) that was beeing smoke screened by some bonehead who put diesel is his gasoline powered Rabbit. Geoff '91t, 226,450km ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 23:00:25 -0500 From: "Chase Clements Jr." Subject: MR2 MKI Starter concerns. First.... This list is a boon to us who listen but haven't got all the smarts to contribute to all the time. Many thanks and happy new year (the Oldsmobile list I used to belong to, before its timing chain broke and threw all the valves out of whack and made the car useless, was useless itself). Second... While this isn't much of a problem, my starter seems to run on during a real cold start (since it's been pretty cold here in Cincinnati the last couple days). Once the engine is running good it'll stop (five seconds max), but I'm wondering if this is normal behavior (i.e., the starter will keep running until it's sure the engine is getting enough gas, etc., and hittin' on all fours). If the car has been run earlier or is warm, it doesn's run on at all. Just on real cold starts. Since it's starting a little rough in the real cold weather (kind of a I-don't-want-to-run-this-morning sputter), I'm thinking it might be tune-up time. But, I'm seeking some advice. Runs wonderfully otherwise on 93 octane (which is about $1.17/gallon these days in Cincinnati. I don't want to discuss the weather here, thanks, it's no bargain). Now about that broken timing chain, the car ( a '68 Olds Cutlass four door, a real tank) ran after I had it fixed but it totally had lost all its compression and would barely run (I got it home by setting the idle up insanely high). I knew it was junk, but I sold it for $50 to a guy who is apparently the stupidest person in the world, my neighbor. The mileage now has probably sunk so low you can count the MPG on one hand. When the car was good, the mileage was so terrible anyway...I needed to unload it. Then I bought my MR2, in September, and life sure has been peachy since then! I still see the Olds occasionally...and am always hearing it backfire. So naturally the whole timing chain-timing belt discussion has been interesting. But, suggestions/advice/opinions on the starter? - -- Opinions in this message are not necessarily those of The Cincinnati Enquirer...a darn good arrangement. Chase Clements Jr. The Cincinnati Enquirer News Library MailTo:cclements@enquirer.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 20:29:08 -0800 From: Ken Farrell Subject: MR2 Terantino, Robert, Jacki and Mr 2 A quick, mindless note: Just got back from "Jacki Brown" , Nice long shot of a MK2 NA in red, as Robert walks by. Very nice, I thought I caught a glimpse of the same car in an earlier shot, through a window, driving by, but it was too quick. Nicest car in the whole movie! The movie's pretty good too. Ken 91T ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 22:44:51 -0600 From: "Andrew P. Tasi" Subject: Re: MR2 MK1 HYPERREV It has a *little* Mk-I content. Most of the text is also in Japanese. - -Andrew P. Tasi Black '88 MR2 T-top - -----Original Message----- >Hello, > > Just wondering if the Hyperrev book has anything to do with >MK1's? > >Todd >87 MR2 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 21:42:35 +0800 From: sirmike Subject: MR2 MKII shift knob Does anyone know if the US shift knob is the same as the Australian one? The one I want is the stubby, squarish one. I got a cheapy plastic one with my '93 so I'm not sure if they changed it in 93 or 94 or what. Also thanks to all who've replied to my post about wheels. It looks like 17" is pretty good.. I am still wondering if 16" would have any benefits. Also does anyone know of a shorter spring than the typical 1-1.5" drop? I am looking for linear rate springs maybe. And if anyone has 16" wheels and would like to share their opinions..please! Thanks again all. Mike C ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 00:28:33 -0800 From: Steve N Subject: Re: MR2 MK1 HYPERREV > Just wondering if the Hyperrev book has anything to do with MK1's? Well, there is about 10 or so pictures of mkis vs over 200-300 pictures of mkiis. There is some pics of a SC that is not in perfect shape, there are 2 small shots of mki rally cars that I have scanned and will put up tomorrow if I can find the disks I put them on, and finally there is a story on a mki race car, that really isn't a mki. From what it looks in the pictures, he has just taken the body off of a mki and put it on a tube frame. That is about it for mki pics in Hyper rev. Steve N. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 Jan 98 22:37:28 From: gseeley@island.net (Geoff Seeley) Subject: Re: MR2 MkII : Brake Pad Sizes, Differences? > Date: Thu, 01 Jan 1998 16:33:54 -0800 > From: Karen or Jeffrey > > Hey all, I was about to replace my front brake > pads w/ the TRD/Performance Friction pads -- to my dismay > the pads appear to be smaller than the ones > on my car. So they won't fit! > > I checked the part # w/ my TRD catalogue and it matches. Jeffrey, I noticed this weirdness when I looked at the newest TRD catalog.. The older TRD catalog lists: MR2 1985-1995 HP, 00602-04491-001 (Front) MR2 1985-1995 HP-Z, 00602-04491-002 (Front) The newest TRD catalog lists: MR2 1985-1989 HP, 00602-04491-001 (Front) MR2 1985-1989 HP-Z, 00602-04491-002 (Front) MR2 1990-1995 HP, 00602-04491-001 (Front, Non-turbo) MR2 1990-1995 HP-Z, 00602-04491-002 (Front, Non-turbo) Hmm, definate difference in description but the same part numbers?? Did you get the -002 part? Also, an older TRD SW20 chassis parts sheet for 89.10- lists: Pad kit, Disc Brake Front, 04491-SW201, DS11(89.10-91.12) Pad kit, Disc Brake Front, 04491-AE001, DS11(91.12-) Pad kit, Disc Brake Front, 04491-SW261, SP2(91.12-) Pad kit, Disc Brake Rear, 04492-AE101, DS11(89.10-91.12) Pad kit, Disc Brake Rear, 04492-AE151, 3410F(91.12-) Pad kit, Disc Brake Rear, 04492-SW261, SP2(91.12-) Hmm, two different front pads of the same compound (DS11) which ALMOST matches the production dates of the OEM pads listed below... Obviously 04491 means "front brake" and 04492 means "rear brake" :) > I also checked my OEM Toyota parts catalogue > here's the findings : there's two kinds --> > 91- Jan 92 and 92-95. This makes sense, since 93-95 had > the bigger brakes. Also the 5S-FE 91-95 is listed > as one pad. Correct, two type for the front but check it out, three types for the rear! The CD-ROM lists: (3SGTE) Pad kit, Disc Brake Front, 04491-17120, 90.01-92.01 (to SW20 -0061690) Pad kit, Disc Brake Front, 04491-17160, 92.01-95.05 Pad kit, Disc Brake Rear, 04492-17040, 90.01-92.01 (to SW20 -0061690) (subs) Pad kit, Disc Brake Rear, 04492-17050, 92.01-93.04 Pad kit, Disc Brake Rear, 04492-17051, 93.04-95.05 > BUT TRD lists all 85-95 MR2 w/o regards to turbo, NA, SC > as the same front pad!! Seems to hold true from looking at their last catalog as well... Sorry, I don't have anything earlier that lists the non-japanese TRD numbers... Let us know what you find. I *hope* I helped rather than confused you further :-) Oh, and I don't want to see any requests for SW20 brake pad part numbers for several months... :-) Geoff '91t, 226,450km ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V2 #47