mr2-digest Friday, December 19 1997 Volume 02 : Number 005 Farewell - leaving the list Re: MR2 RE: Fuel Rail Modification CAUTION 93T Trans out Re: MR2 dual gauge pods RE: Superpac? Re: MR2 Re: MR-2 Music Re: MR2 RE: Fuel Rail Modification CAUTION Re: 5S-Fe Upgrades Turbo Problems Re: Turbo Problems Re: MR2 RE: Fuel Rail Modification CAUTION Re: Manual Boost Controller question Timing Belt Info, Cabe Toyota, and Tanabe Re: Farewell - leaving the list MKII solo tire pressures Dyno Day in Denver AutoX with, w/out T-Tops Re: Dyno Day in Denver Re: AutoX with, w/out T-Tops Re: MKII solo tire pressures Let's talk supercharger! More Supercharger talk Power antenna problems Re: Couple MkII NAs for sale in San Jose Re: 5SFE Stuff NA/Turbo Comparison Part II ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:27:57 -0500 From: "David J. Kessler" Subject: Farewell - leaving the list This post is a little light on MR2 content so I'll do my best to be brief. As I mentioned a while back, I have recently purchased an '88 Porsche 911 and I am in the process of selling my MR2. It was a painful decision, as my MR2 has been very good to me, but the opportunity to be a 911 owner again (I used to have a '71) was just too enticing to pass up. I've been trying to follow both this list, the PorscheFans list, and the Z3 message board for the last couple weeks but I'm afraid the volume is just too much. As much as I enjoy the "personality" of the MR2 list, I just can't justify the time that it takes to keep up with it. So before I go, I just want to say a big public thanks to everyone who has made the MR2 list the great technical and social resource that it is. Many thanks to those responsible for hosting and maintaining the list. Congratulations on what appears to be a smooth transition to the new host. You folks have done us all a great service. Thanks to the people who've contributed more than just discussion by organizing group purchases, rallys, etc. Many people have gone above and beyond to enrich the MR2 experience for myself and others. My thanks also go out to all those who have answered my questions, commented on my thoughts, and offered opposing viewpoints. Your help and inspiration have been an tremendous asset. Lastly, thanks to all those who have given me the opportunity to answer your questions and comment on your ideas. It really feels good to be able to contribute and help someone out every now and then. Those in the Tampa Bay area have not necessarily heard the last from me. I'll be attending as many SCCA and PCA local autocrosses as I can next season. Look for me at the track. To everyone on the list, happy holidays and best wishes. May your future be filled with sprited driving and spirited discussion :-). Enjoy your MR2s and always remember that there is at least one Porsche owner who has nothing but respect for those little mid-engine Toyotas. Thanks again. - Dave Kessler Guards Red '88 911 Silver '97 Z3 2.8l White '91 MR2 Turbo (For Sale) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:32:01 -0800 From: Mark Sink Subject: Re: MR2 RE: Fuel Rail Modification CAUTION Kostas G.D.Chryssos Ph.D. wrote: > So my findings were interesting after all. Became thin....probably the > skin collapsed there too. If you look through my bored out rail, you see welding material from the inside, so yes, it went all the way through. - -- Mark Sink - ----------- http://toy4two.home.mindspring.com/ Modified '87 MR2 & '93 MR2 Turbo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:25:18 EST From: Daucott Subject: 93T Trans out I spent my day off under the '93T taking out the trans (first time for the MK2 for me). It went fairly smoothly except for the RH driveshaft. The bearing refused to let loose from it's housing (yes the set bolt was out) so I had to remove the housing and drop the trans with the driveshaft attached. Of course, after spending 45 minutes banging on it under the car, one hit an "POP" it came out when the assy was out of the car. :-) The whole thing took me 7 hours with 3 hours of help from a friend (the critical part of lowering the trans). Things I noticed: 1) There is more room than the MK1 but there is so much "stuff" that it's actually more difficult. So many hoses, wires, etc. You also need to remove more things with the MK2... like the whole rear suspension except the struts. It makes for easy cleaning though!! That I like. 2) I was definitely due for a new clutch. The old one had 78K miles and was VERY stiff but still grabbed well and never slipped. The disk is down to the rivets but not into them, so I got it just in time. For those that commented on different clutches for the 91 and 93, just the disk is different, not the pressure plate. Thus, if the '93 is different (stiffer) it is in the hydraulics or levers. 3) This trans is leaking fluids from every conceivable place. Fortunately the person receiving this trans is rebuilding it and will install new seals. It's really amazing after only 78K miles... I'm should have a picture of the old vs. new on my website soon. 4) Swivel sockets are key. There were two key bolts that went right off with the swivel sockets, but I'd have been swearing up a storm without them. Otherwise, just the basic tools are required. Oh, and I didn't loosen the allen bolts on the axle shafts or remove the speed sensor from the hub. Neither are required to do the job, but I did remove all the suspension links to make it easier. Now to get the flywheel turned and install the new clutch. With all the "stuff" out of the car it's sure tempting to put back in performance stuff! Hey, didn't someone have a sale on MK2 straight pipes and/or FIPKs?? :-) Dave A. daucott@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:54:10 -0800 From: Mark Sink Subject: Re: MR2 dual gauge pods Why are they charging us a $200 tooling charge? Do we then own the rights to the mold? Or do they get to sell them also, thanks to the kind folks on the list who paid the tooling charge? I might be interested, I dont have gauges yet, but I did mention this awhile back, about the DSM cars having this. The only question I have is the $200. Charles Grosjean wrote: > > So, some of you may be familiar with the dual-gauge trim panel for the DSM's > which completely replaces the drivers side A-panel ?? trim and allows a clean > installation of two gauges (I believe they are currently working on a 3-gauge > version). Anyways, here's the pricing requirement to make one for the MR2. > > >> minimum of 25 units @ $49ea plus $200 one-time tooling charge << > > The company is called Lo-Tek Engineering. Are there 24 interested parties > out there? > > Charles - -- Mark Sink - ----------- http://toy4two.home.mindspring.com/ Modified '87 MR2 & '93 MR2 Turbo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:41:12 -0500 From: Chris Conlon Subject: RE: Superpac? > Has anyone gotten any more info. on the electric Superpac supercharger? It > seems that if this thing really works, it would be something to try and add to > an NA MR2 for a little extra oomph. I looked into one of the electric superchargers awhile back (can't recall which one exactly.) The deal was it ran for short bursts only, 15-30 seconds or thereabouts. >From what little I understand, all the affordable types of superchargers are pretty low efficiency and take a few tens of HP to drive them. A 30HP continuous duty electric motor isn't small, and it would kill your battery very quickly. (Think starter motor and then some.) Anyway it sounded like a great idea to me too, but the engineering reality was that it was only useful for bursts. I *think* it was originally designed for buses accelerating from a stop, where it makes a lot more sense. Hmm sorry to be so negative. On the plus side it did look very doable, not too complicated. I suppose if they made a *big* one it'd be great for drag racing - no turbo lag, no engine power wasted in the SC, just a slightly larger battery. Hmmmm... Chris C. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:56:01 -0500 From: richard wien Subject: Re: MR2 Re: MR-2 Music Phil Cutajar wrote: > Well, this may be a little dated, but IMHO it remains as one of the > best all time driving songs ever recorded and it's a timeless piece > for > car buffs: > > RED BARCHETTA by RUSH > Here's a sample of some of the words: > > "My uncle preserved for me, an old machine - for fifty-odd years" > "To keep it as new has been his dearest dream" > "A brilliant red Barchetta, from a better, vanished time" <== True > of > MR2 > "Fire up the willing engine, responding with a roar!" > "Tires spitting gravel, I commit my weekly crime... > Wind in my hair - Shifting and drifting - Mechanical music - Adrenalin > > surge " > > "Well-weathered leather" > "Hot metal and oil" > "The scented country air" > "Sunlight on chrome" > "The blur of the landscape" > "Every nerve aware" > > "Drive like the wind. Straining the limits of machine and man. > Laughing > out loud. With fear and hope, I've got a desperate plan!" > > Sounds just like my own thoughts every time I hop behind the wheel of > my > two! Excuse me now while I go drive my car and listen to this song.... > > -- > Phil Cutajar > mailto:cutajar@ibm.net > ICQ #6032611 > > > From: Matthew Benjamin > > Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:41:24 -0500 > > Subject: MR2 Re: MR-2 Music > > > > Allright, I couldn't resist, > > > > All these music selections are from before my time. Aren't there > more young people > > on this list? When crusin' in my 2 there are a couple a songs that > come to mind, the > > ones that make you drive faster that is. Excuse my taste in > music.... > > > > The Distance, by Cake. > > "Reckless and wild they pour through the turns..." > > > > No Sleep Till Brooklyn, Beastie Boys. > > "Foot on the pedal - never ever false metal Engine running > hotter than a boiling > > kettle" > > > > Mach 5, The Predsidents of the United States. > > "Smoke from the tires, lay a little patch, without a single > scratch" > > > > There are more I'm sure but that's a pretty good start! > > > > Latur, > > > > Mattb > > '88 Mr2 NA > > the best driving song ever has got to be "Highway Star" by Deep Purple, without a doubt ------------------------------ Date: 19 Dec 1997 23:02:14 GMT From: charlesg@cco.caltech.edu (Charles Grosjean) Subject: Re: MR2 RE: Fuel Rail Modification CAUTION Mark Sink writes: >If you look through my bored out rail, you see welding material >from the inside, so yes, it went all the way through. Can someone tell us where the wall was thin/broke? A picture would be nice =). As for seeing weld bead inside, you would probably have seen that whether or not they penetrated the wall as the heat required to get adequate penetration would probably have taken that area out anyways. OTOH, I'd tend to think people wouldn't notice a thin wall unless they broke it... Charles ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:24:06 -0600 From: "Steve Hoult" Subject: Re: 5S-Fe Upgrades >> Why are we trying to get performance from an economy head? >>Steve B. >Because it's a challenge! And not everyone has $4000 to swap motors, much >less the time to do it. So upgrading what we have is a fun and unknown >road. Besides with a paxton SC kit, If you think you'll be able to plumb in a SC unit for less then $4000 (don't forget you WILL NEED an intercooler!) more power to you. I figure about $2K for the SC, $1200-1500 for the intercooler and the rest will be spent on plumbing it all in. There may have to be computer mods as well. >i "think" my 5S-FE will be faster than a stock Turbo. WOW what a concept, >a turbo seeing the back end of a 5S-FE all the time. Just wait ........only time will tell I think a SC version of a 2.2 liter would be a turbo killer and much more enjoyable around town. Superchargers are addictive. I think even Steve B. has been converted pretty much..... Good luck on your project, but I think you're going to need every penny of that $4000. Steve Hoult '89 SC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:13:22 -0500 From: "Rosenberg" Subject: Turbo Problems Please Help. I have a 93T, completely stock. Just had it in for its 30k service. Two days before bringing it in for this 30k service I noticed that the turbo was acting strangely. First of all, it seemed that I needed to accelerate harder for the turbo to kick in and I'm not get the usual kick (boost), second, the turbo whine is about half as loud as usual(it was). And lastly, when I remove my foot from the gas pedal the gauge needle seems to float down as opposed to dropping(like a brick) like it used too. Any ideas as to what is wrong. Of course I asked Toyota to look at it while doing the 30k service and after an extra day, found nothing wrong but, it is exactly the same as when I brought it in. Now I need to either bring it back in or do it myself. Where should I start looking? Thanks, Arthur Rosenberg 93t, TT, red, stock ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:17:17 -0800 From: Jeffrey Ho See Subject: Re: Turbo Problems At 06:13 PM 12/19/97 -0500, Rosenberg wrote: >was acting strangely. First of all, it seemed that I needed to accelerate >harder for the turbo to kick in and I'm not get the usual kick (boost), >second, the turbo whine is about half as loud as usual(it was). And lastly, >when I remove my foot from the gas pedal the gauge needle seems to float >down as opposed to dropping(like a brick) like it used too. > >Any ideas as to what is wrong. Of course I asked Toyota to look at it while >doing the 30k service and after an extra day, found nothing wrong but, it >is exactly the same as when I brought it in. Check EGR, BOV, turbo VSV, make sure all intake piping is tight no leaks. Check for error codes, look for the knock sensor code. Good luck. - - Jeffrey - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeffrey Ho See / 1997 really sucks! No Rice in SF til 1998 / 92 MR2 Turbo mailto:jhosee@artemis.davd.com Desktop : http://www.mirabilis.com/761260/ SW20 Parts List and Shop Reviews : http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/7153 CallSign : ApeX Squad : Team Brazil http://subspace.vie.com/ - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:23:29 -0800 From: Mark Sink Subject: Re: MR2 RE: Fuel Rail Modification CAUTION Charles Grosjean wrote: > > Mark Sink writes: > > >If you look through my bored out rail, you see welding material > >from the inside, so yes, it went all the way through. > > Can someone tell us where the wall was thin/broke? A picture would be nice =). I do have pics of my rail, but not close-ups of the weld. If you go to http://www.mindspring.com/~toy4two/mycar/fuelrail.html The weld is on the right side of the injector holder that is on the right side of the newly positioned pressure regulator. If you look at the second pic, you can see a shinny spot along side the 3rd injector holder from the left, that's the weld area. - -- Mark Sink - ----------- http://toy4two.home.mindspring.com/ Modified '87 MR2 & '93 MR2 Turbo ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:42:41 -0600 From: "Steve Hoult" Subject: Re: Manual Boost Controller question > Is there anything special about the bleed valve used in a manual boost > controller that makes it cost so much ($250-$300 from Greddy or > Mister2performance) or am I really paying $30 for a decent bleed valve > and $220 for a black plastic knob that has "Greddy" silk screened on it? probably. give "Ha" at PannAutosport a call. he'll make you one for ~$70. tell him "terry the Mr2 guy" refered you. mention to him that we are courious to see his "complete list of mr2 stuff you are putting together for terry. we are all interested in what you have to offer for volume buys" ______________ Send E-mail to David Green from Nashville, TN. I think he said his manual boost controller cost him about $10 at Home Depot. Steve Hoult '89 SC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:30:52 -0800 From: Jeffrey Ho See Subject: Timing Belt Info, Cabe Toyota, and Tanabe Hey all, Just stopped into Cabe today, and Jeff B. was nice enough to give me a quickie Toyota parts catalog. 1970-1998. Covers most of the usual sevice parts. Guess I can add some more info on to the web. I got a price list on the 3S-GTE timing belt ... NOT cheap! I think I paid about $140-$170 discounted for similar parts on my Integra's timing belt. The 3S-GTE totalled $270 NOT including any shims for valve adjustment. Wow. :) So for you folks paying very cheap prices on a timing belt job, you're not getting a whole bunch of new parts.... The strange thing is, the alternator belt is different for SW20-1 if you have power steering or not!!! I dunno what to make of this!! This has to be a typo. Notable pricey parts are : idley pulleys, $50 and $29. Tensioner is $25. Water pump is $63. Valve shims are $4.50/each. I was welcome to use the Cabe's service shop's shim set... BUT those shims are NOT brand new. They are used shims from assorted cars. Apparently dealers just find a good use shim to stick in.... At $5/each, I hope I don't need 16 shims!! :( On another note, Jeff B. happens to deal w/ Mackin (Tanabe USA importer) on a regular basis. He probably has access to the nice Japanese wheels (he had a Volk catalog) and also the full Tanabe line of go fast goodies. I got a full color slick catalog for the Tanabe line. Parts for SW20 : G Power Muffler, Stainless Header Manifold, Turbine Tipe (sounds like a test pipe!), Springs (2 kinds), Shocks, Pillow Mounts, swaybars. I'd be interested in thier swaybar set. :) - - Jeffrey - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Jeffrey Ho See / 1997 really sucks! No Rice in SF til 1998 / 92 MR2 Turbo mailto:jhosee@artemis.davd.com Desktop : http://www.mirabilis.com/761260/ SW20 Parts List and Shop Reviews : http://www.geocities.com/motorcity/7153 CallSign : ApeX Squad : Team Brazil http://subspace.vie.com/ - -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 15:37:30 -0800 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: Farewell - leaving the list Thanks for being part of the list Dave. At least you aren't selling the MR2 because a Fiero became available. 8) So, are you going to do some more comparisons with your 911 like you did with the Mr2 vs Z3? http://www.gate.net/~kopsis/dkessler/mr2_vs_z3.html Perhaps we shall see you in Kansas for the SCCA finals one of these years? P.S. All American Racers have signed on a local San Diego boy (not me 8), a kart (not CART) driver named Alex Barron, age 27. Alex said time was running out when he got signed to Gurney's team. (As in too old... yikes.) P.P.S. Got the new TRD catalog and TRD contingency packet today. For those wanting to go faster, TRD has some great looking new shirts and jackets. 8) Randy Chase '91 MR2 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:54:16 -0700 (MST) From: sirota@azstarnet.com (David Sirota) Subject: MKII solo tire pressures Anyone have a suggested starting tire pressure for autocrossing. MKII N/A running stock wheels & Yoko A022's. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:55:48 -0700 From: Mattled@webtv.net (Matt Ledbetter) Subject: Dyno Day in Denver Would anyone be interested in making a couple of runs on the dynojet near Denver? If enough people are interested, I'll rent it for the day. If no one wants to join me, I'll only use a couple of hours. If anyone is interested, please drop me an email. - -Matt ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:59:55 -0500 From: "Tommy Guttmann" Subject: AutoX with, w/out T-Tops > >> I have seen various pictures on the net of people autocrossing with > >>there t- > >>tops on there car. Yet when I go down to my local SCCA autox they say I > must > >>remove my t-tops per the SCCA rule book. What gives. Anybody else had this > >>experience. > > > >Sounds like bullshit to me. Did you ask to see the rulebook? Rules notwithstanding, IMHO, each has it's advantages...disadvantages... "Without"...lighter weight and lower cg "With"...less chassis flex (not necessarily less drag, since the window(s) are not closed anyway). The clubs I do my track days with "do allow" production cars to keep their tops on, so I'm more confident with this for high-speed, high G situations. I've seen a few T-Topped cars (happy to say, NOT MR2s) develop cracks in the paint near the T-Tops...obviously from flex. Unlike AutoX, where many of you are limited as to how what can be changed suspension- wise, much of the track stuff involves a much stiffer chassis...which does put more stress on the roof section... Having said that, for AutoX, I'd likely feel it advantageous to go top-less Just my .02 Tommy Guttmann tools@tooltech.qc.ca Montreal, Canada www.tooltech.qc.ca tel. (514)633-6644 fax(514)633-1680 2 x Mk1 SC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 18:36:34 -0600 From: "Steve Hoult" Subject: Re: Dyno Day in Denver Would anyone be interested in making a couple of runs on the dynojet near Denver? If enough people are interested, I'll rent it for the day. If no one wants to join me, I'll only use a couple of hours. If anyone is interested, please drop me an email. ________________ You must have gotten some good news from the insurance company AND the body shop! I'd love to come and see what you're TC can do! You keep moving further away though. Please post your dyno results. I'm extremely curious..... Steve Hoult '89 SC ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:37:29 -0800 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: AutoX with, w/out T-Tops Tommy Guttmann wrote: > Unlike AutoX, where many of you are limited as to how what can be changed suspension- > wise, much of the track stuff involves a much stiffer chassis...which does put more stress > on the roof section... > > Having said that, for AutoX, I'd likely feel it advantageous to go top-less I agree. Trading weight/flex, I would remove the tops. I have heard reports of T-top MKII MR2s getting some paint chipping around the doors from body flex. Could be just a rumour. Randy Chase '91 MR2 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 16:50:12 -0800 From: Randy Chase Subject: Re: MKII solo tire pressures David Sirota wrote: > > Anyone have a suggested starting tire pressure for autocrossing. MKII N/A > running stock wheels & Yoko A022's. > Thanks. Hey David. There is a couple of good drivers nationally named Sirota. I think the general thought for the Yok street tires would be to inflate them a few pounds over normal to reduce sidewall flex. My experience autoxing street tires (potenzas) was that too much air will cause the tires to not grip very well. Tire pressures are an example of compromise. You balance sidewall flex with contact patch. Perhaps you might try 36psi to start and then adjust. Are you running a street tire class? You might like trying some R type tires such as the BFGs otherwise. Randy Chase '91 MR2 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:16:42 +0800 From: sirmike Subject: Let's talk supercharger! So what else is necessary for a supercharger? I thought intercoolers weren't necessary? I was looking at the paxton page and they have one that will do 8-10psi on a small block chevy. I called altered performance in florida (the people who did that one dudes turbo kit) And they said an unmodified 5SFE could take about 10psi without modding the engine. So I guess I'll call paxton and see which way it's gotta turn and how much it costs.. What else do we need? Just more fuel? I mean of course a bracket to hold the thing and a new belt? Yo I'm all psyched up cuz if I don't do this I'm thinking about selling my NA after all and buying a turbo. Yeah this way I can keep my two and upgrade other things incrementally like the exhaust, headers etc.. Are you guys getting tired of me bugging everyone yet? I either tend to get extremely excited and want to do it right away or I just give up.. But I can stick it out with a supercharger kit I think... Mike Chou ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 17:20:43 +0800 From: sirmike Subject: More Supercharger talk Looking at the picture of the Paxton SN93 supercharger though.. it looks like it'd be better to run the intake from the right side and put the intercooler on the left... Mike C ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:21:42 -0500 From: alain@voicenet.com Subject: Power antenna problems Hello everyone, Today I got the new antenna mast to fix my broken antenna. So I sat down with the instructions for mr2.com, and went at it. After an hour of hard and tedious work at it, I finally got everything together, had the new mast in, and put in on the car. I had the radio on (antenna up), and used that to spool the antenna. So I turned the radio off, and it worked great. So I go to turn the radio back on, and the antenna raises, and when it gets all the way up, the motor still tries to keep pushing it up. It makes a horrible grinding noise. For the time being I have completely disconnected the antenna from power so I do'nt have to worry about it, but what could be causing this??? Thanks for any help! Allen Herbst 93 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:09:23 -0600 From: "Chris King" Subject: Re: Couple MkII NAs for sale in San Jose > >Also, there is a Red 91 NA MkII at Piercey Toyota with only about 50k miles > >and for under $9000. I drove it and was not entirely impressed however. > Sure the ride is nice and taut and the exhaust note is interesting, not to > mention the fit/finish, but these cars lack power! I was dumbfounded as to why > anyone would want an NA MkII (other than for autocrossing or just tooling around). > >Now, I don't want to start any flame wars or anything. I just wish there > was more of an upgrade path for these otherwise great vehicles. I still don't understand why everyone considers the na such a dog. It would be nice to go out with someone with a turbo and take turns driving each others cars and commenting on likes/dislikes etc. Unfortunately, mr2's are not in abundance here in Illinois. Still, If i am not mistaken, the mkii na is faster than the mki na correct? Chris K. 91 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:15:10 -0600 From: "Chris King" Subject: Re: 5SFE Stuff > >I finally got my '93NA registered on Monday so I've been driving it this > >week, and I don't see why folks are complaining about the 5SFE. I've > >owned both '94 and '91 turbos (still have the '91), and I don't think > >the NA gives up that much to a stock turbo. This is exactly the point I am trying to make. > >With 65 fewer horses and 55 70 and 60 on my 91 > >fewer ft-lbs torque I thought it would feel like a dog, but it isn't > >bad. The low gearing allows it to launch very well, and I can easily > >get wheelspin in 1st gear even with competition tires on the car. Ditto. > >People have complained that it runs out of breath at high rpms, but mine > >seems to pull strongly up to at least 5500 rpm. It feels a lot stronger > >than 135 hp to me. You don't get that sudden rush of power that the > >turbo gets, but the power is more than adequate for most street driving. > >I would bet that the NA's 0-40 times are really close to the turbo's. I agree with all of the above too. In fact, I can't help but wonder if 0-40 would be dead even. I also get good pull up to 5000-5500 rpm although others seem to argue this point. > >The engine's a lot noisier than the turbo, though, but I like the way it > >sounds. I bet an open air filter would sound really good (but noisy). I actually think that maybe the na's engine is a little quieter but it could just be me. That turbo spool though is really loud(and cool)! Chris K. 91 NA ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 19 Dec 1997 20:03:23 -0600 From: "Chris King" Subject: NA/Turbo Comparison Part II Welp, I got a lot of feedback on my last post a while back comparing my 91 NA to a 91 Turbo so I thought I would share my impressions the second time around. Tuesday, I went to look at a 91 Turbo that, as the dealer put it, was "immaculate." So I leave work early and head to Peoria Illinois on Tuesday (about a 30 minute drive). Anyways, here is all that I recall about the car: 91 Turbo Black ext. Black bracked leather interior 78,??? miles cd player t-tops etc. Problems I picked out right away: Leather interior in bad shape knobs missing off driver seat so that you can't adjust no t-top covers aftermarket cd player that didn't quite fit right trunk release/gas release broken off such that it was lying on the carpet with cords hangning out broken hood release bad synchros non-functioning antenna specs of black paint on t-tops and front windshield scratch on the front hood where rust had started forming engine lid bent in a arc shape somewhat - not real noticeable but I am extremely picky so I caught it I am sure there was a couple other things but I can't remember what they were now. Ok, so obviously the dealer is full of crap when he says it's "immaculate". Nontheless, I still drove the thing. My impressions of Turbo vs NA second time around: As before, I was somewhat disappointed by the (what I consider to be small) difference in performance. The main difference I see is in the longetvity of power in the higher rpm's. NA gets going at around 3k and lasts til 5k or so, turbo goes from 3750 to redline. In my opinion, the acceleration level is very close. The biggest difference is that the turbo can keep going with the wider rpm range where as I have to shift at 5000-5500 in my NA. Thats not to say that I can go out and keep pace with everyone's turbo but there doesn't appear to be the huge difference that you might think (or at least that I would think). Now this isn't coming from someone who is just all big and bad on his NA either. As I have stated several times before, I have been shopping for a turbo but with this recent drive, I am re-considering not just keeping the na and getting an old sc too. Other points of interest... once again, there was a large difference in the clutch and transmission. Clutch in my NA is hard along with my transmission (due in part to bad synchros); clutch in turbo very loose along with much smoother shifting transmission. Brakes - noticed the abs on the turbo kinda make the car vibrate upon hard braking. More stuff: One interesting point that I am not sure I can explain, deals with how the two cars take off from complete stops. I am talking normal acceleration here, not dropping the clutch at some ridiculous level. The turbo really gives me the feeling of kinda floating forward. Not sure how else to put it. On the other hand, the na feels kinda reluctant. When you give the na some gas, it will really jump but it doesn't quite feel as "smooth" say as the turbo or an mk1. I think this is what makes most people immediately label the na as "a dog". Let's see. There was one more interesting thing to point out about the car. The brake light above the rear windshield appeared to me to have come from another car. The two sides immediately next to the actual light (and obviously connected) were crimson red just like my car. Maybe I just hadn't noticed this before but shouldn't it be black there just like the rest of the car? Also, the car along with it's new cd deck, also had some aftermarket speakers. IMO they sounded absolutely terrible and have made me reconsider upgrading my stereo to Infinity speakers throughout. Is it difficult to put in an aftermarket stereo that will sound good? I have heard rumors that since the cab is so small, you really will never get a "great" sounding stereo in there and this could be used as an arguement for that? Anyways, I welcome all feedback good or bad. Chris K 91 NA soon to be 91 Turbo or 88-89 SC ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V2 #5