mr2-digest Thursday, 14 December 1995 Volume 01 : Number 062 RE: 91-93 suspension changes RE: Speedometer cables Re: Rear suspension changes -> 93, also re: skids and correcting Re: 87 MR2 mileage too high? Paint Jobs Front End Masks Re: '91 - '92 MKII's being unstable Turbo vs Super MkII NA spark plug wires Rear suspension Slide Control ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: uunet!aol.com!AstonMrtn Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:15:30 -0500 Subject: RE: 91-93 suspension changes Curtis Brown wrote: >92 non turbo (red) and I am a little upset about hearing that I >could loose control due to the "toe angle". Does anyone know of >another solution without "drilling new holes" ??? I really feel >uncomfortable and want to correct this potential problem. I >thoroughly enjoy my MR2 and plan on pumping it Let's not overreact here! Why do you want to make your MR2 tamer? By allowing the rear tires to toe OUT under compression (ie accelerating in turn), the slip angle is increased to your advantage - theoretically giving you better traction. Of course, when you decelerate, the rear tires that were toed out now come back in, decreasing (?) the slip angle, and decreasing traction (for a better explanation of slip angles, read "How to Make Your Car Handle", by Fred Puhn. I'm a little rusty on the subject!). The '93 revised suspension reduced the tendency for the toe angle to change on the rear - thus making the care more predictable. More 'tame' (less fun). Well, if you KNOW what to expect, and know what to avoid, you can take advantage of your '91 suspension. (this is the situation as I know it, please correct me if I'm wrong). Just drive smart! Learn your car's limitations (by exceeding them in a safe environment) and you'll be ok. - -Matt G. '91 NA, white, with leaky t-tops(!) FSAE '95 ------------------------------ From: uunet!aol.com!AstonMrtn Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 01:21:29 -0500 Subject: RE: Speedometer cables Derek Motloch wrote: >anyone ever had problems with a speedo cable freezing up? My >car is at Toyota right now getting both front, and back speedo >cables replaced...as well as the housing that holds it in the >transmision...... labour will be like 3+ hours..... I'll assume you don't mean 'freezing up' literally. My '91 NA had major trouble with the speedo cables, like you described (they broke). I had to get two of the cables replaced, as well as the Cruise Control speed sensor - the total bill was about $500!!! It sounds like you're replacing the same parts as I had to. How many miles? What year? Mine had about 50k when the problem developed. The dealer said that what happened is that the cruise control speed sensor froze up, thus causing the speedo cables to break (I don't think I buy that though). Does the variable-assist power steering get its speed input from the speedometer? When my speedometer cables broke, the steering felt really light on the freeway - I think it was giving me full assist (which sucked at those speeds)! - -Matt G. '91 NA, white ------------------------------ From: uunet!harvey.carol.net!bob (Robert Rogers) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 1995 23:50:22 -0500 Subject: Re: Rear suspension changes -> 93, also re: skids and correcting >From: "Kostas G. D. Chryssos " > >>91's being retrofitted with 93 rear end, but it involves drilling new holes. >> > >No this is NOT right. You do not have to drill holes oops.. i'll try to be more careful in the future. i now see Dr. Chryssos has a well written, detailed instruction on how to perform the update, which can be found at the mr2 web page. also: >From: dean > >Please post your skid and skid-correcting experiences. one night i was tired and i was going into a corner at about 35 and it suddenly seemed way too fast. the new lincoln making the turn from the opposite direction didn't help (if you aren't in the USA, picture a large mercedes, but bigger). panic... brakes (hard)... 4 wheels lock up... back end loose... counter steer... car going sideways... and finally stopping. no harm: no foul. since then, i have learned a lot of great tips from y'all, and when i get the money i plan on taking a driving course. does anyone have any suggestions for such courses in atlanta or charlotte? bob rogers bob@carol.net ------------------------------ From: Itrat Khan Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 07:48:06 -0500 Subject: Re: 87 MR2 mileage too high? Whoa! That's a lot of cash to be asking for that car. When my brother and I were looking for a Supra last year, we found an '88 Supra Turbo with *all* that, the same mileage, and *it* was going for $7500 (Supra's being much more expensive than MR2s). I don't know how MR2s last past the 200k kms mark, there are some on this group that have taken them that far. But you really should talk about the price. (Is the car supercharged?) In Toronto last year, an MR2 like you're looking for would have gone for about $6000-$7000 with about 100k kms on it. Over here it's really hard to find MR2s in the winter, but come March, a lot more spring into the market. If you can wait 'til then, you'll get a much better selection. Itrat '89 SC - -- __________________________________________________________________________ Itrat Khan e-mail: khan@gaul.csd.uwo.ca 4th-year Computer Science London, Ontario University of Western Ontario "MR2 Forever..." ------------------------------ From: Scott McBurney Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 09:07:48 -0600 Subject: Paint Jobs Well, remember the old subject of the 91 Red Paint and the annoying spots that keep showing up? Even after a good buffing with sanding gel, my spots are starting to come back again. (I know, someone said that would happen) Anyway, since my front end needs to be repainted *again* (first time from an accident where the front end was replaced, now from a minor accident that scraped up the front end) I'm ready to have the entire car repainted. (why repaint just the front end if the rest is starting to look like crap?) So, I have a couple of questions: 1. Does anyone have any idea as to what I am going to have pay to have it repainted? 2. What should I look for in a shop when searching for a place that will do it? 3. Should I keep it the original color (crimson red) or should I think about a new color? 4. Any recommendations on customizing it? (like maybe a different color for the black trim? - I've seen dark maroon metallic trim on the crimson red color and it looks really good!) *-----------------------------------------------------------------* * Scott McBurney '91 MR2 Auto 135k miles License: QUIK MR 2 * * Internet: smcburne@dewar.mhs.compuserve.com * * Dewar Information Systems - A Sysdeco Media Company * * 3050 Finley Road, Suite 301 * * Downers Grove, IL 60515 "I drive, therefore I am" * *-----------------------------------------------------------------* ------------------------------ From: "Burns, James B." Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 08:20:00 EST Subject: Front End Masks I saw the post saying that the '91-92 masks were 1-piece and the '93+ were 3-piece. I recently got a mask from Toyota for my '94T and it is one-piece, so maybe they went back to the 1-piece design. I think it said it was for '94-95 models. It was a pain to install, but fit beautifully. IMO, the 1-piece designs are much more attractive (or less unattractive). Brad Burns '94T ------------------------------ From: "Mark A. Shehan" Date: 13 Dec 95 07:51:39 EST Subject: Re: '91 - '92 MKII's being unstable I would HIGHLY recommend putting a larger Suspension Techniques front sway bar on a '91 - '92 MKII (at least on the turbo model). Switching from the stock 17 mm bar to a 24 mm bar eliminated the tail happiness (toe out).... the car is MUCH more controllable now than before. I wouldn't bother "upgrading" the rear suspension (or going to LSD) to the '93+ design as I've personally seen no benefits in handling (at least on an autocross course) between my '91 and a fellow autocrosser's '93 (with the new suspension and LSD). In fact my '91 is significantly quicker on the same course regardless of driver swaps (which may be due to the weight difference or car setup, but I doubt it since our cars are set up nearly identically option-wise and autox setup). Mark Shehan '91 MKII turbo t-top red 145 K miles ------------------------------ From: uunet!arthor.cais.com!scott_maclean (Scott Maclean) Date: 13 Dec 1995 5:00 EST Subject: Turbo vs Super Reply-To: scott_maclean@arthor.cais.com (Scott Maclean) In Reply To: doub@getnet.com (Doug Hutter) Thanks to all of you who explained the basics of how a turbo functions. My lovely wife says thanks. Then she said, "How does that differ from a supercharger?" Actually, the proper name for a turbocharger is "turbosupercharger". But nobody wanted to call it that, so it was changed to just "turbocharger." A supercharger is a set of compressor blades that is driven by the rotation of the engine (with a belt, like the alternator). It spins at a very high speed, compressing the air in the intake before it reaches the engine. This means the air is much more dense, more fuel can be injected, and subsequently the engine develops more power. Usually the air goes through an "intercooler" (which is an air-to-air heat exchanger) to cool it first, because the act of compressing the air in the turbine heats it up, which decreases the amount of energy that the engine can develop from it. A turbocharger does the exact same thing, except instead of being driven as an engine accessory, it is driven by a turbine which is inserted in the exhaust output of the engine. The exhaust drives the turbine, which in turns drives the compressor (the supercharger), which compresses the air. So you could think of a turbocharger as a "turbine-driven supercharger." Both were developed in WWII to increase engine power output on airplanes. Incidentally, airplanes use super- turbochargers for a completely different reason. At ground level, the supercharger is typically completely unused. When at high altitudes, where the air is thin, the supercharger is used to bring the pressure of the incoming air to what would normally be found on the ground. Turbocharged airplane engines are commonly called "altitude engines." Scott MacLean CASMEL-I Artificial Horizons BBS arthor@cais.com Aviation! (301) 417-9341 http://www.cais.com/arthor/www/index.html 300-33,600 bps V.FC/V.34+ * Free Access * Aviation Files * Usenet Newsgroups * CD-ROMs Online * ** Via PMail 2.3h Reg#658976 ------------------------------ From: Eric Jones Date: Wed, 13 Dec 95 10:02:14 CST Subject: MkII NA spark plug wires Has anybody seen any low-resistance wires for the MkII non-turbo MR2s? All the discussion recently seems to have been for the turbos... eric - ---- Eric Jones edj@austin.mentorg.com '92 NA Aquamarine Pearl ------------------------------ From: uunet!aol.com!KipAnderso Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:05:57 -0500 Subject: Rear suspension In a message dated 95-12-12 06:23:16 EST, you write: >It has been mentioned many times here and on the MR2 FAQ that the 91-92 >MR2's rear suspension toe settings change when the suspension compresses >which can cause loss of control in a turn if you switch too quickly from >accelerator to brake. Actually the problem is worse upon throttle lift. Under braking the car seems to remain a little better behaved. >My question is: DOES THIS TOE CHANGE IN THE REAR SUSPENSION ALSO OCCUR ON AN >'85 MR2? I know that the '85 and the '89 SC had the rear anti-sway bar >which made them more twitchy. Also does anyone know exactly what changes >were made to the mk1 rear suspension in late '87-early '88? Was it for the >same purpose as the '93 changes? Aly, I don't know anything about the MK1s, but one way to tell what your suspension is doing is to look at the rear trailing links that connect to the frame and to the lower A-arm. If the control Arm angles down toward the wheels, you're probably getting toe out on compression as the distance between the hub and the forward subframe is increased by the trailing link (control arm) going parallel to the ground. If the control arm is already nearly parallel at rest, then you are more likely getting little if any toe-out and may be getting toe-in on compression. Kip Anderson 91 turbo kipanderso@aol.com ------------------------------ From: uunet!aol.com!KipAnderso Date: Wed, 13 Dec 1995 11:05:54 -0500 Subject: Slide Control Dean, In a message dated 95-12-12 06:23:16 EST, you write: > I'm still trying to figure out what I should have done or not done >to recover. I'm assuming I lifted mid-turn but can't recall for sure. Any >suggestions? (and don't flame me unless you're prepared to come here and >actually >_show_ me how it's done) Please post your skid and skid-correcting >experiences. Have you ever played the video game Hard Drivin'? When cornering at the limit what happens when you jump off of the gas? Instant oversteer. It's the same thing. The fact that you lifted mid-turn added enough braking force through engine compression to perpetuate the skid. (Similar to an E-brake skid.) Next time be prepared to hit the clutch when you yank your foot out of it. Try this with opposite lock and your recoveries should be easier. I learned about the negative effects of compression braking on snow while driving my brothers front drive Audi in the snow. It had studded tires on the front only. I was rounding a corner when the back end slowly broke loose. My first instinct was to yank my foot out of the gas. Well because the front end had better traction and the engine was providing braking to the front wheels, suddenly the front of the car was going slower than the rear, hence the rear end passed me and left me staring dumbfoundedly back toward where I had come from. I wasn't going fast enough to damage anything when the rear quarter panel bumbed the snow bank, but it was an excellent lesson in what not to do. Also keep in mind that with the tight center of gravity due to the mid-engine design, spins can happen much more quickly than say in a 70s Cadillac Fleetwood. (Who would want to drive on of these anyway?) Similarly, recoveries are quicker when correctly executed. I've reminded myself of this more than a few times on dry roads with sudden panic and instant recoveries. Kip Anderson 91 Turbo kipanderso@aol.com ------------------------------ End of mr2-digest V1 #62